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View Full Version : Why are we Predudiced Against?



VinceG
01-06-09, 13:41 PM
Fly into a normally GA field and we get shunned, ignored, and generally treated with distain.

Why is that?

Just looking at Joans post about Elstree.... seems fixed is OK but not flex.... WHAT?

Do those flying suits make us SMELL or something? Mine certainly doesn't.

Bob T
01-06-09, 13:48 PM
I have thought about Joans post a little and also find it bizarre that flexwings were not invited. A 65hp light aircraft can visit, but a 100hp flex cannot.
Here in France there seems to be a different attitude to that of the UK. A public airfield is open to any pilot and no one seems to think that they are better than anyone else. I put that down to a lack of a class system in France, whereas many pilots in the UK class themselves as middle class due to the fact that they have spent more money on an aircraft and don't want the working class microlight pilots visiting.
I have a PPLA as well as a microlight licence and as far as I am concerned we are all aviators.

Ginge
01-06-09, 14:31 PM
It may help to know a little of the background of this flyin. The first thing is that Elstree is and I believe always has been a field at which no microlights have ever been allowed in. With some airfields it is as a result of ignorance on the part of council planners and with other the result of ignorance on the part of the airfield operator.
In this case it is the second. The guy organising this flyin managed last year to overcome some of prejudice of the operators and gained access for 3 axis microlights just for this event; that was as much as he could get. This year 3 axis micros are accepted without argument. This all helps the guy who has got the thin end of the wedge in place and gives him the chance to hammer it home a bit further.
So here we have a guy (a GA pilot) who is working towards gaining us access to an airfield that is denied us at the moment. Maybe a way to improve things is to help those who would help us rather than just sulk. So when this years flyin goes without bother we should get in touch and suggest that next year, as this went so well, maybe he could have a go at getting flexwings in as well.
After that maybe we could say "OK so there is no problem, how about access all year round.

Ginge

MadamBreakneck
01-06-09, 17:42 PM
It's never pleasant to be subject to prejudiced discrimination against you. It's almost unnoticeable when it's in your favour ("Your father went to school with me, dear boy, of course you may").

Just think about it when you make snap judgements about gypsies, asylum seekers, lesbians, teenage mums, single fathers, or whatever, even spamcan pilots.

Life's fun, innit ;-)

Joan
:smurf:

Frank Thorne
01-06-09, 19:34 PM
Probably wont let us in because the wobblywings will outnumber them by 3:1 and take up all their parking space. :D

VinceG
01-06-09, 23:48 PM
Nar.... we take up less parking space, certainly in our hanger anyway.

Owner of Rufforth would much rather have all flex wings.... well actually he likes those Gyros... cos they take up the least amount of room altogether and he charges the same as a flex.

Ginge
02-06-09, 08:38 AM
Fly into a normally GA field and we get shunned, ignored, and generally treated with distain.

Why is that?



Certainly around this way it depends on which field you visit what kind of attitude you meet with.
Some like North Weald or Gt Oakley all fliers are made welcome, also Southend if you want to splash out on the landing fee.
Others you will be ignored unless you spend something "we are British and have not been introduced" rather like Andrewsfield
There are those where we are not welcome as they fear microlights will lower the tone of the place like Clacton and Thurrock
Those were you are allowed in so that the inhabitants can feel superior and sneer like Stapleford
From other places we are banned by insertions into thre planning permission by the local councils who are totaly ignorant of all matters aviation, but do love to ban things to make themselves feel powerful. Earls Colne is one of these
Finaly we have Daymns Hall and Rayne with a good mix of both types based there and a really good atmosphere.

One reason, I believe that modern GA lite type 3 axis micros are allowed in some places is that the Wing Commander Blimp types that inhabit these places cannot really tell the difference with certainty. If they then rant against something that turns out to a mutli grand latest GA wizz they will be show themselves to be the fools that we know them for. So unless the dreaded micro word is used they do not know whether to sneer or congratulate. Of course if you fly a flexwing even they can spot the differance

Well that's how I see it anyway
Ginge

VinceG
02-06-09, 08:41 AM
Wonder how they would percieve you if you flew in on a paramotor :cp: Like you say Ginge, even they can tell.

bingoboy
02-06-09, 08:43 AM
There is a fundamental difference between GA and micro pilots which is evidenced in some strange actions.

GA pilots are frustrated airline jockeys who see their "hobby" as a serious activity which costs them a great deal.

Micro pilots fly for the sheer enjoyment of flight.

Condorman
02-06-09, 10:26 AM
This conversation will go on for years, there's snobbery in all walks of life. I remember parking my 1st ever motor (Clapped out Vauxhall Chevette)

That's why they were called a vauxhall Shove-It :D

My first motor was a MK1 Escort with a Starskey and Hutch stripe on the side... and an 1100 engine. With your foot flat on the accelerator and full speed off the clutch, the wheels didn't spin... happy days.

VinceG
02-06-09, 16:22 PM
Pity that there's no such thing (yet) as a Group A flexwing. That would cause them a problem or two.

Regards Rick

Good point Rick. That would be great. I would love to fly into LBA (EGNM) in a Group A Flex. We talk to ATC all the time on the radio, just to let them know we're there, but they won't let us in... I should fly over at 7k and then call 121.5 for with an engine out (cos I accidently turned the mags off) then do a Johnny Deadstick onto 14.

Wonder if Andy Dixon's free on Saturday? :D

flyingpig2303
03-06-09, 21:20 PM
You may think that Elstree have NEVER allowed a flexwing microlight permission but you would be wrong. When I organised the Hampshire club help for heroes 100 fields fly in day last year I ended up doing a route which included Elstree. They not only gave me permission to fly in with my 582 Quantum but donated some dosh to the charity as well.

I would like to add (brag) that it was a thermic and lumpy day and that the cesspit 152 that I was following in on final had to do a go around which made my greaser arrival so much more sweet!!!

I was told that the owner wouldn't usually allow one of those in. I wasn't able to convince fairoaks to let me in though. Of the hundreds of airfields I phoned that was the only one that I got a dismissive reply from.

If you are trying to get permission to land there in a flex remind them that the one that came in for the charity flight had no trouble keeping up with the circuit traffic. (I did have the bar under my armpits though)

Cheers

Dave

PS

AND they waived the landing fee
:D

damienair
08-06-09, 11:40 AM
I have found especially here in Ireland that if you have an RT Licence and regularly practice there is no problems visiting larger GA Airfields. I fly a Skyranger and not a flex wing, but I have often called over the radio for zone penetration and permission to land without filing a flight plan and also ommitted to mention I was in a Microlight. The reaction on the ground is always one of welcome and respect. In the majority of cases I feel that if you sound professional and that you know what your doing, you will get access into 99% of airfields.

However to be honest I prefer grass strip aviation, anyone can land on a 100 metre wide, 2000 metre long runway, there is no challenge and very often little welcome. Calling into a small 250 metre grass strip with ppr on the other hand is a challenge and very often the welcome is one of unbelievable warmth with invitations for tea, coffee breakfasts etc.

I think we are looking at this whole thing incorrectly, we should feel sorry for the poor chaps and chapettes whom fly large metal oil and avgas guzzling aircraft, whom have never known anything else. It is normal for them to turn up to a huge airfield, put on the yellow vest and wait around to get the aircraft that they have a 1/8 share in, go flying for a 200 per hour flight and go home. Very often letting their licence lapse after 2 to 3 years out of complete boredom. I don't think we are predudiced against, they either know no different out of ignorance or are insanely jealous. I know a couple of Airline captains whom own and fly Microlights, believing them to be the ultimate in light aviation and the only way to fly privately. Forget about the knobs whom log 5-6 hours a year but spend 400 hours a year hanger talking. Personnally I will continue to visit all the beautiful small farmstrips around Ireland and the UK. There are over a hundred farmstrips in Ireland, why bother with the tarmac ones? As well as that you usually pop into visit a stranger and leave with a good friend. There are very few hobby pilots like us logging between 100 and 200 hours a year. Rejoice instead, we the choosen few have picked the right religion. :cp:

VinceG
09-06-09, 16:34 PM
Thanks for sharing that with us..
:bravo: :goodpost: :bravo:

Bob T
09-06-09, 18:12 PM
I think we are looking at this whole thing incorrectly, we should feel sorry for the poor chaps and chapettes whom fly large metal oil and avgas guzzling aircraft, whom have never known anything else. It is normal for them to turn up to a huge airfield, put on the yellow vest and wait around to get the aircraft that they have a 1/8 share in, go flying for a 200 per hour flight and go home. Very often letting their licence lapse after 2 to 3 years out of complete boredom. I don't think we are predudiced against, they either know no different out of ignorance or are insanely jealous. I know a couple of Airline captains whom own and fly Microlights, believing them to be the ultimate in light aviation and the only way to fly privately. Forget about the knobs whom log 5-6 hours a year but spend 400 hours a year hanger talking. Personnally I will continue to visit all the beautiful small farmstrips around Ireland and the UK. There are over a hundred farmstrips in Ireland, why bother with the tarmac ones? As well as that you usually pop into visit a stranger and leave with a good friend. There are very few hobby pilots like us logging between 100 and 200 hours a year. Rejoice instead, we the choosen few have picked the right religion. :cp:

I like this and think that you must have seen my autobiography! I was one of those who thought that I should get my group A licence after a few years in microlights. I was very lucky in that I could fly a number of different bean tins that the club owned for a very small price. Trouble was that I was getting bored, bored with the flying, bored with the paperwork and bored with the attitude of other group A pilots. I too ended up letting my flying lapse. When I retired here four years ago I rediscovered microlights and will never again fly group A.

VinceG
11-06-09, 13:14 PM
That's nice to hear from someone who's been there Bob....

Phil Perry
05-07-09, 18:05 PM
Hi Vince....

We used to have this problem at FivePee Green ( EGBO ) AKA Wolverhampton Airport for many years, I first fell foul of this after flying in there in 1991 in my Flash 2, bearing in mind I'd already obtained full prior permission, I was berated by the total **** of an airfield manager when I went to pay my landing fee. ( I had flown in to revalidate my PPL with one of their schools)
Not being one to suffer fools and ignrant ar***oles lightly I picked him up by the neck and held him up the wall until he apologised for his over the top rant. Immediately following this, the airfield was NOTAMMED "NO Flexwings" for more than ten years.
Fortunatlely, the management recently changed and the new manager, a lovely guy maned Tony Rowland, owned a Mainair Blade and flew it in to work.

As you can imagine, the attitude to flexwings changed virtually overnight, and the ridiculous fifteen quid landing fee was halved for light aircraft, and dropped to a fiver for microlights wishing to use the unlicensed grass runway 28 / 10.

There is now a microlight flying school on the field, and attitudes have changed radically as a result. It only takes a bit of commonsense and it is quite simple for microlights and heavier aircraft to operate safely from the same site. You can now fly in and have a meal at the tower cafe, which ( surprise surprise ) gets a lot more visitors / business nowadays.

As for general predjudice against microlight fliers, the argument I have heard again and again ad nauseum; is that there is less training involved for us to use the same sky as those who have had to pay for forty five or fifty odd hours in a Piper or Cessna and THERFORE microlighters are not as "Savvy" as they are.... This argument is shot to pieces in my view, as a large percentage of microlight pilots are, including yours truly, ex=commercial, and / or ex-GA pilots themselves, and several of the GA guys I talk to seem to have missed out on some of the real basic rules regarding what actually makes an aircraft fly !!

I know one guy who flies with three ( no joke ) GPS units, just in case two fail........ ( ? ) Another 500 hour GA jockey was afraid to turn at more than 15 degrees angle of bank in the circuit so that he didn't "SHOW THE TOP OF THE WING TOO MUCH CROSSWIND ON THE BASE LEG" which he insists would cause his aeroplane to flip upside down. ( ?? )

What do you say ??? do you blame flying instructors generally ??

I'm buggered if I know, but one thing I DO KNOW is that out of approximatley thirty pilots that I know personally, I wouldn't send any of my family up with the non - microlighters and that's a fact. For gawd's sake, most of them can only afford to fly less than 20 hours in a year !! At that rate, they'll never learn anything.

So Vince me boy..... it's going to be a slow process to edificate these jerks, but in the meantiime we'll just have to smile sweetly and humour them as one would a demented relative; but I certainly wouldn't get too downhearted about it, they're the ones with the problem not us cobber.

Hooroo blue

Phil xx

Condorman
08-07-09, 11:36 AM
Nicely said...