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View Full Version : Real Pilots fly Skyrangers that have no Ventral Fin !!!!!



GA AVIATOR
27-03-10, 15:49 PM
:cool: I have always wondered why UK Skyrangers have the lower ventral fin and yet quite a lot of the rest of the World seem to be able to cope without the Ventral Fin fitted on their Skyrangers ?

I know that BCAR-S dictates that a lower Ventral Fin must be fitted to make the Skyranger a more stable flying platform but isn't this taking a little bit of the maneuverability out of an already mundane microlight ?

I will admit that having flown a Skyranger with the Ventral Fin and also an example without a Ventral Fin I noticed different flying characteristics between them.

The Ventral Finned Version will not sideslip as well as the non Ventral Fin Version will
The Ventral Finned Version is more skewed in a crosswind than the non Ventral Fin Version
The Ventral Finned Version will be more straight on a landing run than the non Ventral Fin Version
The Ventral Finned Version will not roll as well as the non Ventral Fin Version will

So I have come to the conclusion that real pilots fly the Non Ventral Version and that 'bog standard' pilots fly Ventral Finned versions
:laundry:

Here are 3 photos of ' REAL' SKYRANGERS that were flown by Real Pilots :tease: :twisted:2017
2018
2019

Guess who the 'Real' Pilot is in the 1st Picture

:cool:

Terry Viner
27-03-10, 20:24 PM
You dont half let some hot air out from under the moustash Peter, We are not allowed, (full stop) to have anything differant in this country so why bring it up,
As you say, our version meets BCAR section S Yours dos'nt,
We can register and fly ours in this countr,y yours cant, That more or less says it all.

Terry

GA AVIATOR
27-03-10, 20:50 PM
You dont half let some hot air out from under the moustash Peter, We are not allowed, (full stop) to have anything differant in this country so why bring it up,
As you say, our version meets BCAR section S Yours dos'nt,
We can register and fly ours in this countr,y yours cant, That more or less says it all.

Terry

Hook.....Line.......Sinker


Would you like me to post you down a Barb Remover:stickwhack:

andy dixon
27-03-10, 22:44 PM
so which skyranger does a barrel role the best then pete........not that you would do such a thing in a none aerobatic plane !!!!!!!!!!!

Bob T
27-03-10, 22:51 PM
None aerobatic in the UK Andy. Many microlights are aerobatic in other countries;

ANDY1973
28-03-10, 19:36 PM
Peter,

Looks like you are returning to your previous alias on this site - "TEST PILOT"!

The ventral fin on UK Skyrangers may be due to directional stability issues in normal flight, but I would personally doubt that based on a look at the overall layout. The fin and rudder area looks "about right" for the scale of aircraft, and there is a large amount of slab-sided fuselage to the rear of the cg.

The most common reason for a ventral fin is to improve spinning, or spin resistance characteristics. In a normal, erect spin the horizontal stabiliser and elevators can blank the airflow to the vertical fin and rudder, causing difficulties in spin recovery or stability. If you look at the size of the Skyranger's horizontal stab, and its positioning directly below the fin and rudder, it is perfect for providing rudder blanking - just imagine where the turbulent air would be if the aircraft was descending in a fairly flat attitude and high rate of descent.

I haven't flown a Skyranger and don't know the certification history, but that would be my guess as to why BCARs requires the ventral fin.

GA AVIATOR
28-03-10, 20:37 PM
Andy 1973

The Ventral Fin is fitted to give it more stability in flight.......BCAR-S insisted on the Ventral Fin and the Skyranger has actually had different size ventral fins over the years. Early UK Skyranger's had a smaller Ventral Fin than later variants have now...... So I guess the CAA or BMAA asked for these different Ventral Arrangements

ANDY1973
28-03-10, 20:48 PM
Thank you for the photo's, Peter.

"More stability in flight" covers a multitude of sins!

Terry Viner
28-03-10, 21:17 PM
I think you will find that the venteral fin has not changed, It was the addition of the exta long rudder to make it match the venteral fin which was altered.

20322033

GA AVIATOR
28-03-10, 21:28 PM
Terry,
The Ventral Fin you had on G-CCCR was half the length of the one on G-OTCV !!!!!! I know the Rudder extends down lower on the newer ones, but the new rudder isn't as low as the lowest point of the old ventral fin either !!!

Check the plans of both your builds and I think I might be right !!!

Terry Viner
28-03-10, 22:38 PM
Your not right Peter, The ventral fin on both models operate from the fuselarge centre cross tube to the upright of the rudder,
Both are the same look at this pic and although this is type 1 the fin remaned the same length

.2035

GA AVIATOR
28-03-10, 22:54 PM
Your not right Peter, The ventral fin on both models operate from the fuselarge centre cross tube to the upright of the rudder,
Both are the same look at this pic and although this is type 1 the fin remaned the same length

.2035

Terry,
The fixing points might be the same on old & new variants, but the shape of the Ventral Fins has changed !!!!!! you only have to look at the shape of the Ventral Fin on G-CR and then look at the one on G-CV and you will see a distinct difference in shape !!!!!

Terry Viner
28-03-10, 23:47 PM
Just read through your post where you say that the fins were longer on CR wasnt as long as CV, They were both the same length but the fin on CV dosnt go quite as low because the rudder makes up for the area covered by being lower with the not quite so low fin. I know for sure they were the same lenght because I had to clinb inside to do the nut and bolt up on the centre cross tube.

GA AVIATOR
01-04-10, 01:16 AM
Could the BMAA be getting ready to allow Skyrangers without VENTRAL FINS into the BCARS applied by the UK ?

Great ADVERT on New BMAA Website














PLEASE NOTE I STARTED TO DISCUSS THIS ON THE 27TH MARCH...... ON THE 31ST MARCH THE BMAA WEBSITE WENT 'LIVE' WITH A NON VENTRAL FINNED SKYRANGER....... DEJA VUE OR WHAT !!!!

Bill Scott
02-04-10, 17:37 PM
Peter,
You must bear in mnd that we have different regulation in this great country for very good reasons. Our air is different.
Also, do not discount the Rans which is pre-Section S and would, no doubt, require a ventral fin for improved longitudiinal stability. That seems to be a particular fetish of our (LAA) Francis.
So, I take your views as a compliment, being a Rans pilot. The aircraft that was the inspiration for the B&Q version :)

Returning to the subject of the ventral fin: I think they are the same length in relation to fuselage fixing points, but the earlier type is deeper whilst the later type was not so as the increased rudder depth contributed to the longitudinal stability. OOPS! I've just re-read the thread and Terry has already said this.

Another Victor Meldrew moment

GA AVIATOR
02-04-10, 18:40 PM
Bill / Terry,
The Fixing points might be the same points on the Skyranger framework !!! My post is regarding the actual shape of the Ventral Fin.
The Early Skyranger had a shape that had a Shallow start and then thickened downward towards the Back !!!!! to simplify it...... look at the angles at each shape of the 2 different shaped Ventral Fins !!!!

Bill Scott
02-04-10, 20:33 PM
Peter, If you read the post by Terry and myself, I think you will find we're in agreement ;)

GA AVIATOR
02-04-10, 20:41 PM
Peter, If you read the post by Terry and myself, I think you will find we're in agreement ;)

Bill,
Unless I am reading Terry's post incorrectly, Terry thinks the Ventral Fin hasn't changed shape between what I think is the early version and the late version ?

I am wondering whether my eyes are deceiving me or not !!!!

The Ventral Fin is a different shape is all I am saying....... Where is Paul Dewhurst when you need him !!!

Bill Scott
02-04-10, 21:38 PM
To quote Terry: " They were both the same length but the fin on CV dosnt go quite as low because the rudder makes up for the area covered by being lower with the not quite so low fin."

'nuf said

ANDY1973
02-04-10, 22:06 PM
Perhaps someone can enlighten me here....

Firstly, why do you think that "Real men" fly an aircraft with less directional stability. From my experience, the more manoeuvreable an aircraft, the more likely it is to have high directional stability.

Secondly, why exactly is the fin required under British regulations. BCARs specify the handling qualities required by an aircraft - they don't say Skyrangers must have a big ventral fin. I've had a quick read through, and I can't see anything in terms of stability that would suggest the fin is required. Could it be a stall or spin recovery measure.

A

Bill Scott
02-04-10, 22:24 PM
Dunno, but I have to say that I think the current UK version looks smarter ;)

ANDY1973
02-04-10, 22:33 PM
And to be honest, that's probably a good enough reason in itself!

Terry Viner
02-04-10, 22:49 PM
The main differance between the 2 of them is that mine hasnt crashed and the one Peter was flying with no fin did, At least ive still got my balls Peter, that makes me a real man.

russell
04-04-10, 14:36 PM
TERRY DONT TEMPT FATE. what was the findings of the crash and was it related to the fin ? If not why mention the crash? just my take on this.
Take care
Russell

GA AVIATOR
04-04-10, 18:48 PM
To answer both the point raised by Terry and responded to by Russell I will answer it in great detail :

I don't actually know whether the lack of a Ventral Fin was contributory to the incident with the Skyranger I was flying or not ? The facts were I had the option of using runway 03/21 at Skegness (which to my mind was the obvious runway to use due to Wind direction !) but all the resident aircraft were using runway 10/28 for their take offs & landings.
On the understanding that they probably knew better than me on the operations of the airfield I taxyed up to the 10 hold.

On my take off run I encountered a strong gust which slewed me sideways just after rotation and in the following windshear I dropped down into the corn adjacent to the runway and on the rescuing climb away I clobbered a markerboard advertising something with the RH Maingear !!!!

On my landing at Eddsfield the RH leg collapsed ( I WASN'T AWARE I HAD DONE ANY DAMAGE TO THE MAINGEAR UNTIL THAT LANDING ) I really thought I had got away with it !!!

My own analogy of the flight was : I was close to the MTOW ( Close as in 'Over it' ) and with the Wind as it was I should have taken my own decision to use 21 as my departing runway instead of 10 ( still can't believe I was that silly !!! ) and that the crosswind was too much for the poor old Skyranger in the configuration it was in !!!
I also believe having flown nearly 900nm in the Skyranger by the time I got to Skegness I was getting slightly cocky in terms of what I thought I could handle as a crosswind !!!
As to the close to MTOW issue I actually believe that had I have been under the MTOW the effects of the windshear wouldn't have caused so much sink !!!

What I learnt from the incident is : Don't fly a Skyranger in any configuration over the MTOW and abide by the crosswind limit listed in the SKR Manual.

What I learnt about the Skyranger in general is : They are a pussy cat to crash !!!!!! but I also learnt the Ventral Fin does f*** all !!!!

MAX912S
04-04-10, 20:48 PM
The title does No Justice to REAL PILOTS because THEY (real pilots) Fly FLEXWING :-)

Terry Viner
04-04-10, 23:22 PM
Listen to Max Peter, He seems to know.

VinceG
05-04-10, 10:21 AM
Real pilots fly hang gliders. You can't get any more bird like flight than that :D

Condorman
05-04-10, 13:43 PM
Real pilots shut the **** up, log off (or dont log on in the 1st place) and go flying, on the basis of that i reckon that makes none of us here.

ANDY1973
05-04-10, 14:13 PM
Real pilots fly everything they can get their hands on!

dave newington
04-05-10, 12:07 PM
This wouldn't be just "Standardisation" as a lot of these models are fitted with both amphipious and ordinary floats in the States
Dave N