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VinceG
13-06-11, 20:47 PM
Hi People.

Before we went off to Spamfield, Katie recommended a forum award for deadstick landing.

http://www.microlightforum.com/images/medals/prop_30.pnghttp://www.microlightforum.com/images/medals/prop_100.png

For those people who have had to make a forced landing due to the "donkey stopping"

So, from memory (which isn't good)

I can remember the following people talking about their own forced landing.

Andy Dixon
Tyke Pilot
Flying Brian.

They have all been given the award.

Now this is totally on trust, have you had to make a forced landing with the engine switched off? If so, please let me know on this thread and you will be given the award. Let's hope that not too many people receive it.

Unlike the photo award you can only display it once, even though you may have multiple claims.

Bob T
13-06-11, 21:07 PM
In over 15 years of flying microlights, I have never had an engine stop on me. I have switched the noise off a few times and landed, but that is not really difficult.

Terry Viner
13-06-11, 21:16 PM
My donkey stopped just 3 weeks after I passed my GFT in my first plane G-MYIE, thanks went to my instructor for the large amount of engine out tuition he gave me.

Terry

tonyhs
13-06-11, 21:25 PM
Two so far :-( The last one a couple of months ago from 900' over marshes.

VinceG
13-06-11, 21:36 PM
Bob, Terry and Tony given the award.

If you can't see your awards then you will need to add an signature. See your profile for editing your signature.

mcgolem
13-06-11, 22:07 PM
I had an engine seize at 500 ft on climb out about 2 years ago at Sandtoft. Landed in a farmers field.
Hence the reason I now own a Quik.

Tom

vicky G
13-06-11, 22:24 PM
Classic power failure 300 ft on take off at stoke.06 under the power cables into a rough field only to hit a concealed concreate block in the last few yards bending the front forks back . quite a few others as Peter Kelsey can verify one at fife .one at crawford and landed on the unfinnished A1M at Ferry bridge near Pontefract.

VinceG
13-06-11, 23:42 PM
Award given to mcgolem and vicky G.

Frank Thorne
14-06-11, 00:19 AM
Spamfield last year comes to mind.

meggark
14-06-11, 05:33 AM
What about a broken prop? I had one break at 500 ft on takeoff just prior to first solo which necessitated switching off due to vibration. Video on YouTube though not very good

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk

Roger Mole
14-06-11, 07:56 AM
Classic power failure 300 ft on take off at stoke.06 under the power cables into a rough field only to hit a concealed concreate block in the last few yards bending the front forks back . quite a few others as Peter Kelsey can verify one at fife .one at crawford and landed on the unfinnished A1M at Ferry bridge near Pontefract.

I suppose you must get quite a few people queuing up to fly with you then eh, Vicky?:yipes:

VinceG
14-06-11, 07:56 AM
Award given to Frank Thorne and Meggark.

Sorry Frank, we were only discussing it on Saturday. Doh.. :roulette:

P Kelsey
14-06-11, 08:29 AM
Yes I can confirm that Vicky is a more than worthy candidate for the deadstick landing trophy :wink:
I think she should have a Trophy as well for her coolness on the RT :yeahthat: Her mayday call was something like " Something has just gone through my ****ing prop "
I was sitting on the apron ready to depart Glenrothes Fife when Vicky took off, now the ironic part was Vicky needed to go home to Stoke (Kent) and Fife arranged her a lift to a train station after her deadstick landing.... They also knew that I was flying to Rochester Airport and never thought to say " could you give this wee lady a lift? "

Having now read her extra 'deadsticks' I guess she is well trained in these type of things :slap:
Mind you I think Vicky is used to deadstick landings as I heard she was a very accomplished Glider jockey.


Classic power failure 300 ft on take off at stoke.06 under the power cables into a rough field only to hit a concealed concreate block in the last few yards bending the front forks back . quite a few others as Peter Kelsey can verify one at fife .one at crawford and landed on the unfinnished A1M at Ferry bridge near Pontefract.

RichardP
14-06-11, 08:41 AM
couldn't help myself submitting this picture for the 'Dead Donkey' award :D

5090

TREV BAILEY
14-06-11, 09:03 AM
Hi Vince, three in flexies and one in three axis.....good old Rotax,.....mind you the last one was me running out of motion lotion

Trev

southcoastflyer
14-06-11, 12:50 PM
I had an engine seize at 500 ft on climb out about 2 years ago at Sandtoft. Landed in a farmers field.
Hence the reason I now own a Quik.

Tom

Do Quiks not have engines?

paramotorpilot
14-06-11, 15:39 PM
Like the image for the deadstick landing award Vince.
I don't think it really applies to paramotors because you usually turn the engine off before landing anyway, whether it's at 2 feet or 500 feet.

Just to give a different perspective here are the two instances when my donkey decided it had had enough:

'And thenÖ. the fan stopped. 17th March 2010

Alternatively titled ĎThe insidiousness of vibrationí.

On the field yesterday waiting for the wind to become calm, I knew it would be a short flight but any flight is good.
Got off on the second attempt as the first sent me into the rough so I aborted. Only the Ďrunwayí areas of the microlight field are kept reasonably short. Climbed to about 700 feet and had a potter around for 15 minutes then circled back to the field and did a pass over at about 30 feet. No problems, comfortable in the harness, throttle and motor all performing as expected.
I circled round again at I guess about 300 feet, brakes still in hand preparing for a landing this time. Got onto finals and reduced power to start losing some height and the engine stopped. WTF? OK Iím not too low so tried restarting, 3 good pulls on the starter, nothing
Itís now at the interesting stage so I pulled the trimmers down to give me the best glide angle and had a good look at what was below. The fields around the microlight strip are not the huge fields of northern France that seem to go on forever and they do have a smattering of mature trees in them.
I was about 2 fields away from the LZ and judging the glide angle I could possibly make the second one. Between the two was a track with a fence on either side. Just inside the second field were 2 trees with a decent gap between them so at least I knew the direction I wanted to head for
Iím loosing height now and this glide path appears to be heading straight for the second fence so I pulled a bit of brake to try and get a bit of lift. Let off the brakes so Iím not getting too close to the stall, then brake, release, brake, release, Iím getting awfully close to the fence. Huge pull on the brakes and an abrupt stop at the base of the fence, bit of a hard landing that I thought.
Itís great when you can run off the last bit of forward motion but I didnít quite have that option this time. I clouted the bottom of the cage on the bank but Iíve managed to straighten that now.
I was in no position to control the wing, which flew over the top of the fence but fortunately drifted back and landed on the track. I gave it a good inspection today and fortunately no damage.

I found out why the motor died, spot the broken wire. It seemed very coincidental that it failed just as I throttled down. Caused by vibration and the fact that I had cable tied the ĎTíconnecting piece to the brown wire.'

'Vibration strikes again. 9th Feb 2011

I went to the strip this afternoon, conditions have been great, did all the usual pre-flight checks, warm up and full power checks, lovely take off and 'THWOCK' at 20 feet and no power
I landed without incident still within the confines of the field, gathered all the kit together then checked out the motor.
Spark plug fine, fuel fine, nothing dropped off or rattles Tried starting and it seems like it's backfiring.
Oh well I've got a few days to look at it at least

Turns out it's a fractured Lucar connector on the ignition coil.
I thought I had contained the 'T' connector for the 3 Lucar connectors sufficiently against vibration, evidently not.
I've done a proper job now with a rubber boot so nothing can move '

Cheers,
Alan

VinceG
14-06-11, 16:36 PM
Do Quiks not have engines?

Yes but it's a rotax 912 and they never stop do they? :D

Award given to paramotorpilot. Even if deadstick is normal. It wasn't on that occasion.

andy dixon
14-06-11, 16:38 PM
Some how it just wouldn't keep flying

50915092

Rick Goddin
14-06-11, 17:01 PM
Mine took place at Enstone on 9/03/1983 in Eagle G-MJPS when the Cuyuna 440 stopped. Logbook reads:

"P1 Circuits; second circuit too low and insufficient speed. Lost airspeed when engine failed. Forced landing without power onto soft field. Some airframe damage, no injury
Signed Simon Baker BMAA Inst No 9"

It was thought to be due to carb icing. I could not make the runway as too low in the circuit. This is my only experience of a deadstick landing.

VinceG
14-06-11, 17:09 PM
Thanks for sharing Rick. White knuckles and brown shorts :D

zulu1
14-06-11, 17:22 PM
I lost a prop but it wasnt deadstick, I test flew a old Windlass in Camperdown near the coast for a mate of mine, flew perfectly. He shipped it to Ladysmith by trailer, I took it for a test flight, no problem on very short finals the motor revved excessively but no thrust, looked behind lots of rpm and prop attached. On landing the prop just stopped spinning. Tried to taxi, all the bolts sheared, prop fell off ! helluva push back to the parking area ! The coast is humid and inland isn't, expansion and contraction, wood prop I imagine...bolts didnt like it. We incidentally get the Cane Cutters club badge, it comes with a Bar and Silver, Gold ratings and is worn on the right chest ! Engine out you land in the cane it makes a evil mess especially if the cane is high. I will scan one and post the emblem a small cane rat. I dont have one.

VinceG
14-06-11, 17:29 PM
Interesting zulu1, your call, if you think you deserve it then it's yours. :D

As I said in the first post, it's entirely down to trust.

As for me, I can't claim it myself. Which I'm grateful for :halo:

zulu1
14-06-11, 18:34 PM
No i dont deserve it as I landed under power, taxi driving doesnt count !

andy dixon
14-06-11, 20:07 PM
don't fancy that landing in the cane bit !

Carl Bayliss
14-06-11, 22:08 PM
I've had three up to now...two in my first aircraft G-MNAC a Flash and one in march on base leg at 300ft in a Jabiru...which wasn't very fun.

Did yours actually stop Frank?

MAX912S
15-06-11, 20:34 PM
Have had 9 in G-MYVY all fuel related due to small glass filter clogging up until I changed it for the larger glass filter one of those were on a fly out with 6 other flexies before we set off it was agreed if one goes down we all go down :-( The farmer cutting his field loved it :-) as we surrounded him after just taking off from Netherthorpe. another was just after finishing a lesson with instructor the blade started to cough at 1500 ft crossing Spurn Point with a strong headwind we turned back as we coasted in with no engine lined up for a field only to see at last minute powerlines on the aproach instructor helped by pushing bar to jump cables and said your in control lucky 3 bounces in long grass and down in one piece. I think if it was his aircraft he would have had total control from engine off.

Not had any failures in Gay Bob G-MZCD BUT Barry Has LOL ( sorry Barry ) good experience mate.

The worst for me was the plastic radiator expanded and blew open the top header section in 2004 in my Quik G-MAXS whilst over Spurn point with engine stopped to save it damage and thinking this is going in the drink but just managed to coast in to North Coates JIM at P&M just threw me the new Ally Rad when he saw it never had any more trouble after that except the broken engine frame BUT THAT DESERVES another medal.


So Vince does this qualify ? :-)

VinceG
15-06-11, 23:37 PM
Award given to Max912S.

Nice one Max.

Dave Morton
16-06-11, 16:32 PM
one in a fairly new jabiru calypso, end result wasn't good...

jjones
16-06-11, 17:38 PM
one in a fairly new jabiru calypso, end result wasn't good...

can i ask what happened?

WobbleWing
16-06-11, 18:11 PM
Interestingly so far they have all been two strokes... any 912 dead sticks?

Bill Scott
16-06-11, 18:49 PM
Jabiru Calypso certainly aint a 2stroke ;)

I have lead a charmed life sitting behind my trusty 503. Carb ice has happened a couple of times, but she just coughs and recovers once the ice breaks off into the carb :)

No medals for me (so far)

Red Barron
16-06-11, 19:01 PM
2, same day, 17th Jan 2010 at Dunkeswell, with a passenger who thought I was messing about.
Ran fine on start up & taxy, full chat to 200ft (ish) then died. I thought I cleared a restriction on the fuel hose so went for it again, 200ft (ish) it went again. It was due to the fuel primer bulb being faulty.
Quantum 582 G-MZGV

Tyke Pilot
16-06-11, 19:16 PM
2, same day, 17th Jan 2010 at Dunkeswell, with a passenger who thought I was messing about.
Ran fine on start up & taxy, full chat to 200ft (ish) then died. I thought I cleared a restriction on the fuel hose so went for it again, 200ft (ish) it went again. It was due to the fuel primer bulb being faulty.
Quantum 582 G-MZGV

I had the same problem in a 582 Blade

dave nixon
16-06-11, 21:46 PM
you are all making me jittery ive just got a 582 blade,replaced all the usual fuel related parts inc pump have practiced a lot of engine outs hope don't need to apply them ,allways seem to land better without it ??:scratchheadblue:

Tyke Pilot
16-06-11, 21:50 PM
you are all making me jittery ive just got a 582 blade,replaced all the usual fuel related parts inc pump have practiced a lot of engine outs hope don't need to apply them ,allways seem to land better without it ??:scratchheadblue:

No need to worry mate, the 582 Blade is great, most problems are fuel related and easily solved. Another positive is we are all here to talk about our little dramas

mcgolem
16-06-11, 22:01 PM
Do Quiks not have engines?


Sorry I missed the part about it being a 582 blade.

And it was only after my share partner had changed the needles and jets and put them on the wrong setting.

Tom

daipower
16-06-11, 22:32 PM
I have had 3, 2 on the same day.
firstly my mates helmet blew off his head and went through the prop, killed engine and glided down safely. Noticed crack in the wooden prop so I got a sheet of A4 stuff like prop tape, cut it into 3 and stuck it on the prop. Took off, 10 min later one side came off, prop out of balance, lots of vibration so had to kill the 447 again. Got down ok. Took the other tape off, and flew it back minus my mate who had had enough by now.
3rd one was took off 2 up, climbing at 400-500ft above Pembrey country park, engine just died back to tickover and wouldnt rev. Turned out to be a crack in the fuel pipe on the suck side of the pump.
Landed ok no damage etc. Passenger was a helicopter pilot who gave me encouragment all the way down.
Do I get an award? I must deserve one for being so thick to fly the plane with that sticky stuff on the prop.

VinceG
16-06-11, 23:13 PM
Nice one Dai.

New award given to Daipower.

xair582
17-06-11, 23:28 PM
i had one at 250ft on the climb out bad fuel had blocked the nets in the fuel filter causing it to contract and block the flow off. Height loss is alot more than with the engine at idle ill say that much.

paultheparaglider
18-06-11, 01:45 AM
I've had 6. One of which was a paramotor and the rest were all on different flexwings. Starting from my 3rd solo flight when the baffle came out of the exhaust and went into the prop and put a big hole in the wing. I've still got the prop as a keepsake.

In the old days, you would have simply given the award to everyone because the old (and fairly true) saying was "there are those of us that have had engine failures and those of us that will".

Rick Moss
18-06-11, 11:41 AM
I had a habit of landing my Quantum deadstick (deliberately) every time I flew, but have yet to do the same in the SkyRanger. Soon though....

geejay
18-06-11, 12:26 PM
I had a Jabiru cut out on me whilst soloing during training, it failed just after turning final and I decided to give the engine a blip but it just stopped, to new to flying to think to restart it and landed it perfectly, came to a stop and then restarted it to taxi back. Not really deserving of a dead stick I guess as I was already on final. I'd like to believe that the reason I didn't panic was down to the superb training of my mate coxxy.....

VinceG
18-06-11, 15:35 PM
Award given to xair582, Rick Moss, paultheparaglider, and geejay

Add a signature line in your profile if you can't see your award people.

Red Barron
18-06-11, 15:41 PM
[QUOTE=VinceG;37508]Award given to xair582, Rick Moss, paultheparaglider, and geejay

Confused!!!

I guess my 2 engine outs were not enough! Ah well, I'll have to keep trying. :confused:

Katie
18-06-11, 17:38 PM
do I get an award for switching the mags off in flight? Got to be worth something if there an award just for climbing up to 10k. Maybe deliberate engine off landings should get a black and white version of the award, we can get it upgraded to colour when then engine conks for real... this thread is a reminder that it's just a matter of time.

paultheparaglider
18-06-11, 18:14 PM
Katie,
You have just reminded me of another occasion when I landed unexpectedly. I had flown a Hiway Demon homebuilt trike up to 6,500 feet. I then cut the engine to glide down with the intention of pull starting it at about 1,500 feet before continuing the flight. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to restart. Afterwards, when I thought about it a bit, I considered that at the height I cut the engine it would have been running rich and the plugs would have been a bit dirty as a result. Combine that with a cool engine after the glide down and no matter how hard I pulled it wouldn't start. So it is well worth making sure you are over appropriate terrain if you ever turn off the mags, and you should assume it won't restart.
Paul

Rick Goddin
18-06-11, 18:23 PM
do I get an award for switching the mags off in flight? Got to be worth something if there an award just for climbing up to 10k. Maybe deliberate engine off landings should get a black and white version of the award, we can get it upgraded to colour when then engine conks for real... this thread is a reminder that it's just a matter of time.

Not a good idea, IMHO. Jay Madvanhi was doing this when he became a fatality. There's already a WFAeC award for this, it's called the Old Stuffers Trophy Class 1. Anything can happen during the landing, such as a badger running onto the runway ahead of you - then full power and you're off, no power and the conclusion could be grave.

RichardP
18-06-11, 18:32 PM
Not a good idea, IMHO. Jay Madvanhi was doing this when he became a fatality. There's already a WFAeC award for this, it's called the Old Stuffers Trophy Class 1. Anything can happen during the landing, such as a badger running onto the runway ahead of you - then full power and you're off, no power and the conclusion could be grave.

Hi Rick..
Not knowing the names in the incidents, a quick google shows
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/7433248.stm



Crash pilot 'over alcohol limit'

An instructor who died when his aircraft crashed while with a pupil was nearly seven times over a blood-alcohol limit for pilots, an inquest has heard.
Jay Madhvani, 54, suffered fatal chest and spine injuries when his microlight crashed at Plaistows Farm, Chiswell Green near St Albans, last March.

I dont see how deliberate Mags-off landing and Drunk are related awards. I dont want to dig up old wounds though. I have done mags-off landings for years.. I usually end a flight with one (non electric start plane too!)

Rick Goddin
18-06-11, 18:39 PM
Hi Rick..
Not knowing the names in the incidents, a quick google shows
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/7433248.stm

I dont see how deliberate Mags-off landing and Drunk are related awards. I dont want to dig up old wounds though. I have done mags-off landings for years.. I usually end a flight with one (non electric start plane too!)

Yes there were other issues in that case.

it's a completely unnecessary risk. A bit like saying, why don't we try and land with a bag over our heads!

VinceG
18-06-11, 19:24 PM
[QUOTE=VinceG;37508]Award given to xair582, Rick Moss, paultheparaglider, and geejay

Confused!!!

I guess my 2 engine outs were not enough! Ah well, I'll have to keep trying. :confused:

Sorry mate, missed your post. Award Granted

dave nixon
18-06-11, 19:29 PM
Hi all im not much interested in this award and hope not lay claim to it .:parachute:

VinceG
18-06-11, 19:30 PM
You and me both Dave. :PullingMyHairOut:

Rick Moss
18-06-11, 19:53 PM
Yes there were other issues in that case.

it's a completely unnecessary risk. A bit like saying, why don't we try and land with a bag over our heads!

Unnecessary? Yes. Valuable? Yes. I never realised how differently my Quantum handled (specifically the glide ratio) with the engine stopped versus tickover. Having started to experiment with switching the motor off at 50' on final, and then working up from there, it became routine for me to switch the mags off at 2000' before joining our universally empty circuit and gliding in. I hope to achieve the same degree of confidence in my Skyranger in due course.

Dave Morton
18-06-11, 20:04 PM
http://www.microlightforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Dave Morton http://www.microlightforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.microlightforum.com/showthread.php?p=37355#post37355)
one in a fairly new jabiru calypso, end result wasn't good...







can i ask what happened?



the nose wheel struck a ditch and ended on it's roof, no injuries, only my pride

Rick Goddin
18-06-11, 20:59 PM
Unnecessary? Yes. Valuable? Yes. I never realised how differently my Quantum handled (specifically the glide ratio) with the engine stopped versus tickover. Having started to experiment with switching the motor off at 50' on final, and then working up from there, it became routine for me to switch the mags off at 2000' before joining our universally empty circuit and gliding in. I hope to achieve the same degree of confidence in my Skyranger in due course.

I can't quite see how it can be valuable if it's also unnecessary? Let's hope that the badger doesn't come out of the bushes when it's too late for you to restart the engine.............or worse, a person.

Insurers would not pay up if they were aware that this vital function had been deliberately disabled, any more than they would be happy for you to disconnect the rudder pedals to see how the aircraft performed without them.

P Kelsey
18-06-11, 21:11 PM
I have to agree with Rick G in that I wouldn't think it is necessary to fully shut down the engine, quite foolhardy really..... as noted here Jay regularly used to do it.... now much as there were underlying issues as to the contributory factors of Jay's fatal accident, he was still very accomplished in doing engine off landings and paid the ultimate price when he mucked one up.


I can't quite see how it can be valuable if it's also unnecessary? Let's hope that the badger doesn't come out of the bushes when it's too late for you to restart the engine.............or worse, a person.

woodysr2
18-06-11, 21:40 PM
I had to shut the engine off coming into eshott in my 582 blade due to carb ice throttle jammed at just a tad over 4000 revs. the engine started again quite happily after landing and a short rest on the runway to let the ice melt That is what you get for swapping a silver top 582 with a blue top and not realising that your carb heat system (water heated) will no longer work due to a thermostat in the top hose:PullingMyHairOut:very quickly ordered correct carb heat from Skydrive

Carl Bayliss
18-06-11, 21:40 PM
Part of many comps is to switch off and land deadstick

Crusty
18-06-11, 21:54 PM
I dont know about this badger/person thing Rick, how often does one get hit by a landing glider ?

edit p.s. ive only done an intentional engine off landing once, when I was training for my License, I felt it helped consolidate things id learned and brought home the difference of the a real engine out as opposed to an idle down, whilst being in a situation where there where enough options that I wasnt too stressed ...good learning experience imho

Katie
18-06-11, 22:19 PM
I'm very glad I practice the deadstick landings (with an instructor) as it was a very valuable experience and was to me the missing piece of the puzzle from the PFL training. It also crosses an important psychological barrier for me, I now have more confidence of my ability to handle a real engine failure.

If done carefully I believe mags off landing only have a very small risk element. Interesting point about the insurance, as our non certified engine are officially an optional extra I think it should be covered, but It's something I'll check before doing them again.

MAX912S
18-06-11, 22:20 PM
switching the mags off in flight? from 10k. :-)

Ive done that a few times Katie

Rick Moss
19-06-11, 07:54 AM
I thought there was a forthcoming badger cull anyway?

Rick Goddin
19-06-11, 08:21 AM
I thought there was a forthcoming badger cull anyway?

:-) :-)

NigelJ
19-06-11, 10:37 AM
Tricky one - if you never practice it how would you handle it if/when it happens for real? On one of my lessons my I was lining up on finals and my instructor said "engine failure" and switched the mags off :surprised:. I'm sure he wouldn't have risked our necks if he thought it was dangerous and I managed the (short) landing OK. Like modern cars, engine failure is a very unusual occurrence these days (unlike my mini in the '70s...) and may not happen to you, but I expect my first plane will be a fairly old XLQ 2-stroke so it's good to have some practice just in case...

goldrush
19-06-11, 16:23 PM
Whilst respecting both Ricks and Peter's viewpoints, I do not agree.
To me, having spent most of my life in the Gliding world (which may explain our different attitudes) practicing dead stick, engine OFF situations can only be of benefit, rather like any other training, provided of course that it is carried out well withing gliding range of a deserted runway.

The "problem" with only practicing with the engine on tick over, is that when it stops for real, on our beasties the glide ratio, round out and ground effect etc can all be somewhat different. Far better to get used to the "real deal" under "controlled" conditions.... NOT like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2279wYlrNI

Rick Moss
19-06-11, 18:54 PM
NOT like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2279wYlrNI

Nice bit of flying; reminds me why I don't do that! Hard to see how practising deadstick landings would help there... Experience is no substitute for altitude.

goldrush
19-06-11, 19:19 PM
Quite true Rick!
Guess it's "horses for courses":-)

martin sanderson
22-08-11, 21:05 PM
mine stopped on Saturday about 400 foot up on finals which was also the first terrifying flight in my new plane, just made it to the edge of the runway with about 3 feet to spare .

My second time was on Sunday this time about 600 foot up and just out of reach of the runway , but managed to put the thing down in a nice field

i am just thankful that i practice forced landings almost every time i go up ,,

dave nixon
22-08-11, 22:30 PM
Hi martin why did it stop ,cr--y fuel filter.

martin sanderson
22-08-11, 23:27 PM
don't know yet i need to take the head of and investigate ,,

saturday i thought it was overheating , i had the wrong prop pitch set so it over revved ,,, water temp was up to 100 ,,

so the right prop pitch was set and to make sure the thermistat was not malfunctioning i took it out ,, ground run test seem to be fine
so sunday went up same thing this time temp was all ok and was not over revved ,,,

and engine has had all new fuel hoses and filters put on ,,,

i have been advised to take of the fuel heater mine is metal tubing wrapped around the radiator pipe ,, i have been told that it has never been proven to work ,, that's why its not more common on engines and the warm fuel has been known to decay the metal pipe ,,

either way lots of work to do and lots of cash to spend ,,, all on a engine i will never fully trust again miss my old flash 2 alpha

dave nixon
22-08-11, 23:35 PM
Hi martin i had similar event,took thermostat and boiled up to check opp,check water pump ,they air lock like no tomorrow bleed air from both bleed bolts in head back and front,use only 20per cent antifreeze with distilled water hey presto runs at 65-70,bleeding every drop of air is esential leave an inch of air gap in top of rad for expasion,hope this helps .

martin sanderson
22-08-11, 23:48 PM
yes thanks will try

Jiggles
23-08-11, 00:25 AM
It's the best available carb heat Martin, it cures the problem at source. Your problem is probably fuel starvation or electric breakdown.
John

vicky G
23-08-11, 00:51 AM
Hi martin i had similar event,took thermostat and boiled up to check opp,check water pump ,they air lock like no tomorrow bleed air from both bleed bolts in head back and front,use only 20per cent antifreeze with distilled water hey presto runs at 65-70,bleeding every drop of air is esential leave an inch of air gap in top of rad for expasion,hope this helps . Another way to rid air from an awkward water cooling system is to fill it from the lowest point ie radiator drain tap , like back flushing ,the trapped air when forced by a fast backflow will travel with the flow to the higest point . The top of the radiator or filler cap witch ever is the highest .You may have to releace the air by loosening the highest hose pipe .hope this helps.

vicky G
23-08-11, 20:21 PM
yes thanks will try
Martin , try this (possibly your fuel and oil mixture are incorrect ,or stale petrol ,drain all fuel , including pipes and carbs fresh and correct oil mix with two stroke oil 50 to 1, 100 ml per 5 ltrs petrol couple of gallons enough for a couple of circuits ,and try that ! you might be experiancing overheating through lack of oil and partial sezeure . worth a try .:plane-028:

Rick Moss
23-08-11, 20:34 PM
If you've had a partial seizure you'll see it when you remove the heads; if it shows signs, do not run it again until the damage and the cause are rectified (it may cost you a crankshaft instead of a hone)!

The symptoms sound very much like fuel starvation at high power; if you have a primer bulb, bypass it with 2 T's (one before bulb, one after; linked with a piece of pipe). I understand you have already replaced your fuel filter? Check float bowl(s) for water or debris and free movement of float needles.

Remove the heads and look for any scoring and heat damage. I would recommend removing the thermostat entirely and controlling the engine temps with radiator covers.

Do you have single or dual ignition? A coil breaking down could cause this.

Hope that helps,

Rick

martin sanderson
23-08-11, 20:59 PM
thanks for all the posts i have had the head of to day all looks nice but have found that the rotary valve shaft is not turning when the prop is turned :thumbdown: at least i no what the problem is now

Rick Moss
23-08-11, 21:41 PM
Has it ingested a foreign object?

martin sanderson
23-08-11, 23:03 PM
dont no yet

Riggers
24-08-11, 07:19 AM
Back on track: I did one (deliberate) engine stopped landing in my SkyRanger: I'd say that it definitely was of benefit to me, providing new experience and improving personal confidence in both pilot & aircraft.

Although the SKR handles slightly differently in quiet mode, it's entirely benign. Having done it, I proved to myself that a stopped prop is not in itself a problem; to me, that's one less thing to worry about in what could be a stressful situation. I don't subscribe to the 'unnecessary risk' approach: IMHOP, flying around all day in perfect conditions doesn't develop the skills necessary to cope with abnormal situations. Why do we do a phase in training called (I think), 'unusual attitudes'? [My wife accused me of that and it was nothing to do with flying!!!].

Most of my early lessons in the '90s in an AX3 were above the persmissable wind speeds for ab-initio RAF crew. At on stage, I was known as 'Stiff Sausage Riggers', based only, I must stress, on the characteristics of the windsock! (did anyone see the Frank Spencer flying lesson?). During conversion onto the SKR, we used a short, 'sporty' strip, with a steep approach and a 90 degree crosswind. The windsock was horizontal. It was bl**dy hard work and I was mentally knackered at the end of it, but crosswinds no longer hold any fear for me. To the SKR it was easy - I acknowledge I'm not a very skillful flyer.

'Pushing the envelope' is a good, but unforgiving, tutor; I think it's the approach to which the Spartans subscribed. The trick is knowing where the edge of the envelope lies and remaining within it. Managing risk to an acceptable level is what we're required to do routinely as aircraft captains, innit?

BTW: At Brawdy, we had a Hawk's engine seize 10 miles off the coast: the pilot dead-sticked it back to a 'greaser', earning a Green Endorsement in his log book.

Gentreau
24-08-11, 07:27 AM
This thread is making me think that it would be a good excercise to do some mags off landings under well controlled circumstances.
It might also be a good idea to practice mid-air engine restarts during the same excercise.

My thinking is to use a nice long runway on a day with light wind and start by practicing the engine restart in case it's needed later.
Then I was thinking of cutting the mags on short finals, then gradually cut them further out as I become more comfortable.
I have a water cooled engine, so thermal shocking should not be a concern.

Any other thoughts or suggestions anyone ?

Kestutis
24-08-11, 12:44 PM
Not because the award, but just for others experience ...

Date of event August 4, 2011, place Garliava (South outskirts near Kaunas, Lithuania), time 1700 UTC. I was happily returning from my recreational 54 min. flight around and over wonderful landscape of Kaunas region. I was approaching southern outskirts of Kaunas, the lovely Garliava town and could see my home airfield and then it started …I thought the throttle was touched by me unintentionally because rev started go down very slowly, so I pushed it forward. Nothing happened, so my next mind was – fuel is not coming from lower tank, so I switched to the upper … nothing … revs still down, EGT down … a strange sound came out the engine … you know like sneezing J … and it stopped. Well, what we have around? Highway, wires, big field with high grass and small field with some cows (so it must be short grass), altitude 1200 ft. I started aiming to the small field because it was close to the built up area with nice street (easier to load trike on trailer J ) close and cafť (in case help would be late J ). I had to make some maneuvers to adjust height for approach (there were some trees on my way and house). I set slow speed and pulled control bar right above the trees, in order to shorten landing path … I stopped right in front of … angry bull. He calmed down right after I stopped taxiing J People were coming from their homes and asking if I need any help. I was terribly sorry disturbing them, but they told me they are used to … some hot air balloon landed in that place some days ago and they were afraid it will land on their houses … they are not scared by me because I can control my plane J

Well, I phoned to my friends and was picked up and was able to get my beer one hour after the event J

The problem was the bearing of conrod … engine will be repaired, but I just have tested the new one J

P.S. The Raven is an ideal wing for "spot" landing :) It goes where ever you point it :)

Dave Morton
24-08-11, 16:54 PM
This thread is making me think that it would be a good excercise to do some mags off landings under well controlled circumstances.
It might also be a good idea to practice mid-air engine restarts during the same excercise.

My thinking is to use a nice long runway on a day with light wind and start by practicing the engine restart in case it's needed later.
Then I was thinking of cutting the mags on short finals, then gradually cut them further out as I become more comfortable.
I have a water cooled engine, so thermal shocking should not be a concern.

Any other thoughts or suggestions anyone ?

I would first cut the mags once your over the threshold so your sure to make the runway, worst case scenario on initial testing would be a bumpy landing.
You seem to have all other areas covered, weather, engine restarts, using long runway, cutting mags further out etc, your results would be interesting.

Gentreau
24-08-11, 17:04 PM
Yes, my idea thinking was that the first time, I will set up an engine idle approach aiming for the mid-point of the 900m runway at LFFK and then cut the mags at the threshold while still at 100 feet or so.

I will report back when I get the chance to try this, but it may not be 'tout-de-suite'

Bob T
24-08-11, 17:18 PM
I quite often switch off the noise bit on my machine, it becomes very peaceful when you do it. I will only do engine off landings when the destination airfield has a runway of 250 meters or more.

garry
24-08-11, 19:01 PM
hi kestutis
you made that sound very easy :king:

Dave Morton
24-08-11, 21:21 PM
hi kestutis
you made that sound very easy :king:


sure does, and I like the consideration for your rescuers of making sure you land near a cafe

Kestutis
25-08-11, 04:33 AM
sure does, and I like the consideration for your rescuers of making sure you land near a cafe

Well, I'm former hangliding pilot ... My friend, glider pilot says that any aircraft becomes glider after engine failure :) So, any one has to be trained for such event.

It was not easy, but I try to control situation, do not panic, relax and concentrate on landing.

I'm used to think and look for easy acess to a road after landing all time when flying hangliders - very important if you do not want to find yourselves in the middle of nowhere and carry packed wing on your shoulders for miles :) ... and to tow a trike would be even worse ...

And as I told before - Raven is THE WING :) Well tunned it gives you only 400 ft/min sink rate and goes rignt to the point onto ground you point it. I love it :) I tell you - I have over 1000 hrs in the air and never had such obedient baby before :)

dave nixon
25-08-11, 08:01 AM
Hey kestutis that picture looks a bit more than 60 degree turn ,but suppose hang gliders are used to it. dave

Kestutis
25-08-11, 09:07 AM
Hey kestutis that picture looks a bit more than 60 degree turn ,but suppose hang gliders are used to it. dave

Sorry guys, I'm used to braking some rules ... such is discovery way ...

I've made almost 90 degrees turns several times and diving more than 45 degrees ... Don't do that if you have other type wing than Raven ... :)

Don't think I'm simply crasy ... no, everything was carefuly calculated before making decision for such risk, it was done in an area designated for aerobatic flights and radio guy was informed that I'm there ... and ... it is not may way for flying on daily basis ... I'm calm flyer and most of all like slow and peaceful flights :)

dave nixon
25-08-11, 11:42 AM
Hey hang gliders have their own set of rules,interesting to see king post has attached sail like stabiliser ,does it have that effect on raven ?

Kestutis
28-08-11, 09:21 AM
Hey hang gliders have their own set of rules,interesting to see king post has attached sail like stabiliser ,does it have that effect on raven ?

Don't know ... , could be ...

AndyJ
28-08-11, 10:05 AM
Sorry guys, I'm used to braking some rules ... such is discovery way ...

I've made almost 90 degrees turns several times and diving more than 45 degrees ... Don't do that if you have other type wing than Raven ... :)

Don't think I'm simply crasy ... no, everything was carefuly calculated before making decision for such risk, it was done in an area designated for aerobatic flights and radio guy was informed that I'm there ... and ... it is not may way for flying on daily basis ... I'm calm flyer and most of all like slow and peaceful flights :)

I started with an XL so was very limited, when you try to spiral dive it just flys out as soon as you get to 50knots, incredibly safe. As soon as I got the Raven the first things I did were all the tricks the book says you are not allowed to, (no loops), I agree the things you can do with the Raven wing yo wouldn't want to do with some others the Q or Q2 wing etc, roll in the Raven is very light and easy to respond to / make inputs, the Q2 smooths everything out very well but this also takes out the feel and precise easy reactions.
I understand the DTA wings behave in a similar way to the Raven, anyone know?

martin sanderson
28-08-11, 17:48 PM
Has it ingested a foreign object?5580

no had a shredded rotary valve gear ,, down to over revving ,, quite a costly mistake

any way vince do i get the deadstick landing award

dave nixon
28-08-11, 21:53 PM
Hi martin looks definately forked,to strip a gear like that something has stoped it very quickly me think something in the drive or the like has siezed first, might b wrong but have a good look make sure everything else rotates freely

Rick Moss
28-08-11, 22:27 PM
That gear hasn't stoppped dead; it was rotating as it failed otherwise the failure would all be on one surface as opposed to being ground away as in the pic. Secondary damage could be an issue; all the missing metal went somewhere, and on a 2-stroke that means via the big and little end bearings, and out through the combustion chamber and exhaust ports.

It looks like it maybe from a 462; if so let me know as I can put you in touch with a chap who has a complete good motor except for the crank.

Phil Perry
28-08-11, 22:31 PM
50th Birthday......

Place : downwind leg for BAE Warton RWY 26 left. Had asked for emergency weather diversion....Warton refused the request. Formation leader had already called Mayday as Warton ATC INSISTED that if we didn't, we COULD NOT LAND THERE. Warton ATC accepted the Mayday call, but then . . . .Unbelivably, asked us to HOLD ( ! ) whilst the BAE146 mail aircraft departed rwy 26. I have never heard anything so ruthlessly stupid in my entire career.

We did as they asked, by which time the weather front had covered the "26" threshold, so we wheeled around to land downwind on 08. My flash 2 was engulfed in torrential rain and the engine stopped. I was tail end charlie behind two Rans aircraft, and landed immediately behind my mate Mick Mills in his taildragger and nearly ran up his A**e.

We were then locked up by an armed security guard for an hour whilst they checked us out, and after a blazing row with their ATC "Lady" we were ejected from the airfield to find accommodation for the night. We were rescued by a lovely couple who knew one of our crew members, and they let us stay at their place for the night.

This was how I spent my 50th..... the only bright note was that the owner of the nearby off license gave me two bottles of sparkling wine for my birthday after hearing our sob story.

And YES, we DID get an apology from the CAA AND Warton management. ( after they had bent the truth and tried to string us all up !!! ) I don't recommend anone landing there, we found out later why they were a bit queer with us, but that's for the next post.

dave nixon
29-08-11, 10:30 AM
Yea get your'e drift rick i thought gear kept rotating ? dave

geejay
29-08-11, 14:45 PM
50th Birthday......

Blimey Phil, sounds a bit of a nightmare, is an apology enough? I don't think so, a mayday call accepted then asked to hold, I'd be inclined to take it further, if there's a place where further action can go.

Katie
29-08-11, 20:46 PM
we found out later why they were a bit queer with us, but that's for the next post.

....?...Don't keep us in suspense Phill....

MadamBreakneck
30-08-11, 11:04 AM
50th Birthday......

Place : downwind leg for BAE Warton RWY 26 left. Had asked for emergency weather diversion....Warton refused the request. Formation leader had already called Mayday as Warton ATC INSISTED that if we didn't, we COULD NOT LAND THERE. Warton ATC accepted the Mayday call, but then . . . .Unbelivably, asked us to HOLD ( ! ) whilst the BAE146 mail aircraft departed rwy 26. I have never heard anything so ruthlessly stupid in my entire career..

I heard similar once when on a gliding holiday at Walney Island (Lakes Gliding Club). The ATC chappy instructed a glider to hold for an aircraft which they had cleared to do a a straight in long (20 mile) final. The glider politely returned that they were unable to comply and landed on the perimeter track. Gliding CFI went up the tower to 'have words'.

Looking forward to your next post... used to work at Warton (when it was BAC). Not allowed to say what I did there (hush hush, you know, what! :signhere::pink:)

Joan

Riggers
30-08-11, 12:01 PM
... used to work at Warton (when it was BAC). Not allowed to say what I did there (hush hush, you know, what! :signhere::pink:)

Joan

SSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!

Until now, the blackpudding ingestion testing programme conducted on the TSR2 by BAC has managed to remain secret. Any divulging of it here might jeopardise BAES' clear market lead in the technology.

Were you a thrower, Joan, or merely a scraper-offer?

:lol:

Phil Perry
30-08-11, 12:48 PM
Listen folks,

I apologise for the obvious vitriol in that post. . . . I get really wound up just thinking about it to be quite honest, I've never had a wx divert request refused before that, One of the rans pilots was handling the radio calls, as my bar mounted PTT switch had filled up with water !! I have to admit to being rude in the extreme to the female duty ATC officer, questioning her parentage, and asking on which planet she had recieved her safety training ( amongst other things...) but she made the situation worse by accusing us of "Cutting Up" the 146 as it climbed out from 26 !! I suggested that the hole she was in was getting deeper ande maybe she should take the evening off and stopp digging furhter. The pilot of the 146 aircraft returned later and tried to give us a load of B*****t as well, whilst we werre still locked in a room.... but was told we were going to have his B****x on a plate at the enquiry, since he must have heard the radio traffic and broke one or to rules of the air by accepting a takeoff clearance before the emergency was cancelled, and our legal team were also going to sequestrate the ATC recordings, we warned them not try and erase these.

We also had three gps tracklogs to back up the fact that since we were mid - point downwind at the time the 146 departed, "Cutting him up" would have been a bit difficult. There then followed several months of nasty letters from the CAA, before they finally gave us a grudging apology and said they were not going to proceed with any legal action. Nice of theem wasn't it ?? we said that we had not decided yet whether WE were going to have bash at Warton . . . . but following several ascerbic letters to Warton and CAA Flight Safety, we let the matter drop.

We stayed overnight with a really nice guy named Howard, who was an EX 146 pilot at Warton, then working on airlines. He said that the base "Scuttlebut" indicated that one possible reason we had a hard time with Warton security was that two weeks prior to our "Visit" the airfield was raided in the middle ofr the night by the lads from Hereford on a securty checking excercise, they landed in a Herc and drove around the base in landrovers sticking "Smileys" on the Eurofighter hangars and other bulidings, then departed unnoticed !!! Probably why we got locked up whilst they checked our identities !!

Gee I feel better now,. . . . better than a session with a shrink !!

PS. . . .JOAN, I hope you were not lurking in the background whilst I was ripping strips of that nice lady controller !!!!

ANYWAY, BACK TO THE THREAD. . . . . . . I can't really claim an award for the deadstick landing, as.... if I hadn't made it onto Warton's huge runway from downwind,.. I would deserve to be stripped of my UK citizenship. . . .

dave nixon
28-10-11, 21:35 PM
Hi vince i hoped not to claim this award ,engine failure on takeoff 100ft landed on drag strip L/M dave

jjones
28-10-11, 22:08 PM
christ Dave!

benefit of using the old airfield, at least there was some other tarmac in range!

dave nixon
28-10-11, 22:28 PM
Yea had to slot it between the grandstands ,when it hapened thought sh-- went into auto mode it was ok ,don;t want to practice that one to often shows training was good.

Gentreau
28-10-11, 23:16 PM
Hey y'all.

Is this where I claim my prize ?

Rachelivy
12-06-12, 13:51 PM
I've had a dead stick landing in my old Blade. Twin tank switching problem. If your definition of sucessful is that we walked away uninjured then it was fantastic! The blade didn't fare so well....! Live and learn!

VinceG
12-06-12, 17:44 PM
You have been given the award.

You need to go to your control panel and add a signature for us to see it.

MadamBreakneck
23-07-12, 19:38 PM
Ref PS on this post http://www.microlightforum.com/showthread.php?7335-Suffered-Engine-Failure-today&p=66216&viewfull=1#post66216

Do I get a 'deadstick' award or does it go to the guy I was checking out? :mrgreen:

He brought it back and we stopped right in the middle of the runway at Great Oakley - all I had to do was encourage him and remind him to do his TIFS.

Joan

neil9327
12-05-13, 22:51 PM
How about this one:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b6f_1355128406

All survived, mercifully due to no traffic on the road..

Edit: Found it on youtube, with a 60,000 view count, so you might have already seen it..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icfU8WN6Un0

JohnRiley
11-03-18, 19:19 PM
I've had a few, but I remember my first.
I had a Solo Striker with a 330 Robin, (would love it now) I fitted a belly tank so had a 3 way fuel tap. You guessed it I forgot to switch to the other tank.
I was on a cross country from Plaistows to Popham I think in 1987. I landed safely in a crop, with no damage, Marjorie Brunt came to resue me.

Happy Days