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Riggers
16-04-14, 20:43 PM
I'm getting closer to doing my Nynja panel. As I've said elsewhere, its binnacle design is for me the PITS, in an otherwise masterpiece. Bit like a wart on the Mona Lisa, I suppose, but hey, y'all know I NEVER complain. Anyway, I've come up with a million compromises to produce the layout below. It consists of 3 banks, from left to right:

i. Flying instruments and other stuff which I use when I'm getting tense;

ii. Navigation stuff, in the form of an iPad mini running SD, hopefully close enough so I can read or at least understand what I'm about to hit;

iii. Engine stuff, which is sent, obviously straight from God, to confirm the reassuring noise of a happy motor.

Some of the compromises:

1: No compass, so it'll have to go in the overhead, where the cockpit tubes meet. Be handy when I'm looking up, seeking divine intervention.

2: No GPS, which will have to go, er somewhere else, when I can think of where to stick it. [Now, don't be rude]

3: No room for any other serious stuff; mind you, at least I can put my monogrammed slippers, with the pipe, in the colour-coordinated entertainment receptacles, for half time.

QUESTIONS:

I know at least one expert has found the Nynja panel a challenge and enjoyed it so much he did it twice....

i. Unfortunately, 3 instruments are full size: how close dare I go to the edge of that bl**dy tapered binnacle? I looked at a Winter 50mm VSI, to save some space, but it's calibrated in m/sec. No wonder they tell us to avoid gliders...

ii. How close dare I bunch the instruments, without jeopardising the material? What is it, anyway - looks like carbon fibre on the front, but fibreglass at the rear?

iii. How difficult is the material to work? The experimental Boscombe Jaguar carbon fibre wing, complete with its LERX roots, was a pig to work & repair.


11232

CT Aviation
16-04-14, 21:22 PM
Phil, where you have the VSI may be an issue with the throttle linkage and don't forget there are brackets around the edge for mounting and securing the shrouds.
the carbon is very very thin on the facia and care has to be excercised not to chip it.
mines up for final inspection on Saturday, engine runs, carb balance and fuel flow to complete tomorrow. Then I have to find some suitable carpet ( undecided between Axminster or something cheap and light weight.
back to your panel, I'd make a thin ply panel, fit all the instruments and see if it fits and misses shroud and throttle etc.
chris ( by no means an expert on anything, it's all about learning)

jjones
16-04-14, 21:40 PM
you can get a 2 1/4 vsi

http://www.afeonline.com/shop/vertical-speed-indicator-57mm-2000ft-min.html?osCsid=9c6456f1bf0ac8bcdb37722b3185cc82

goflygaz
17-04-14, 06:36 AM
That does look like a lot of dials in a small space.have you already bought the instruments?

If not why not consider the MGL stuff
http://www.parts4aircraft.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?ActionID=67174912&PBCATID=1543531&PBCATName=MGL XTreme - mini EFIS and mini EMS

much lighter and more compact, or keep the analogue flying instruments and just have the electronic engine monitoring?

Riggers
17-04-14, 09:23 AM
Phil, where you have the VSI may be an issue with the throttle linkage and don't forget there are brackets around the edge for mounting and securing the shrouds.
the carbon is very very thin on the facia and care has to be excercised not to chip it.
mines up for final inspection on Saturday, engine runs, carb balance and fuel flow to complete tomorrow. Then I have to find some suitable carpet ( undecided between Axminster or something cheap and light weight.
back to your panel, I'd make a thin ply panel, fit all the instruments and see if it fits and misses shroud and throttle etc.
chris ( by no means an expert on anything, it's all about learning)

Chris,

Thanks for this:

i. I feared the VSI might cause problem; JJ's 57mm VSI might address that - thanks JJ!

ii. Good luck with the final inspection, but I know you won't need it.

iii. Amazed to hear you haven't carpeted it yet - I did it before fitting the floor, although I suspect technically, it doesn't need to be included in the weighing, if it's detachable, and it must add a fair lump to that. Paul D cites reduced weight as a benefit of the Nynja binnacle over the Swift round top dash. He's correct, of course, but when I have to add carpet to cover all that exposed firewall area, I suspect the case might not be so clear. I might velcro it on, when I get there.

iv. So, it IS carbon fibre, then, and not some clever silk screen printing technique, or similar. Simple question: did you cut/drill from the front or the back? I was proposing to cover the whole of the front surface with masking tape as reinforcing protection, prior to machining from the front. On the Jaguar carbon wing I mentioned, the repair teams at Abingdon had to develop new repair techniques, using dagger drills & other exotica. CF is not pleasant stuff and it's got some negative aspects, which need(ed) thinking about, eg U/V, rainwater, and others. That was based on early 90s experiences of the stuff; maybe the problems have now been overcome.

v. The plywood mock up is a good idea, if a bit time consuming, but 'time spent on reconnaissance is seldom wasted', as the military would say.

Phil

Riggers
17-04-14, 09:32 AM
That does look like a lot of dials in a small space.have you already bought the instruments?

If not why not consider the MGL stuff
http://www.parts4aircraft.com/PBSCCatalog.asp?ActionID=67174912&PBCATID=1543531&PBCATName=MGL XTreme - mini EFIS and mini EMS

much lighter and more compact, or keep the analogue flying instruments and just have the electronic engine monitoring?


GfG: Thanks for the suggestion & the link.

I looked, early on, at the MGL stuff and was quite impressed; however, the price, complexity and my fear of electrickery put me off. Additionally, there's the 'eggs in one basket' aspect to consider.

I can't yet get a radio to work, so I think I'll have more than I can cope getting that and the transponder!

SteveTurnbull
17-04-14, 10:41 AM
It's all personal opinion, but I'd move the iPad up slightly and move the radio and transponder down to the space where the slip indicator is. This would allow access from both seats.

The slip indicator can then go up where the radio and transponder were.

Riggers
17-04-14, 13:29 PM
It's all personal opinion, but I'd move the iPad up slightly and move the radio and transponder down to the space where the slip indicator is. This would allow access from both seats.

The slip indicator can then go up where the radio and transponder were.

Steve,

My slip indicator is probably gets used the least on my panel: I don't have much success in getting a centred ball PLUS the aircraft going in the required direction at the same time! As a result, I make little reference to it - there's too much else going on.

IF they work, the radio & transponder will require frequent adjustment, requiring the most detailed attention to their displays when resetting. For that reason, I've put them closest to me & the natural eyeline when looking out.

As you suggest, personal preference, I suppose.

Paul Dewhurst
17-04-14, 16:19 PM
I'm getting closer to doing my Nynja panel. As I've said elsewhere, its binnacle design is for me the PITS, in an otherwise masterpiece. Bit like a wart on the Mona Lisa, I suppose, but hey, y'all know I NEVER complain. Anyway, I've come up with a million compromises to produce the layout below. It consists of 3 banks, from left to right:

i. Flying instruments and other stuff which I use when I'm getting tense;

ii. Navigation stuff, in the form of an iPad mini running SD, hopefully close enough so I can read or at least understand what I'm about to hit;

iii. Engine stuff, which is sent, obviously straight from God, to confirm the reassuring noise of a happy motor.

Some of the compromises:

1: No compass, so it'll have to go in the overhead, where the cockpit tubes meet. Be handy when I'm looking up, seeking divine intervention.

2: No GPS, which will have to go, er somewhere else, when I can think of where to stick it. [Now, don't be rude]

3: No room for any other serious stuff; mind you, at least I can put my monogrammed slippers, with the pipe, in the colour-coordinated entertainment receptacles, for half time.

QUESTIONS:

I know at least one expert has found the Nynja panel a challenge and enjoyed it so much he did it twice....

i. Unfortunately, 3 instruments are full size: how close dare I go to the edge of that bl**dy tapered binnacle? I looked at a Winter 50mm VSI, to save some space, but it's calibrated in m/sec. No wonder they tell us to avoid gliders...

ii. How close dare I bunch the instruments, without jeopardising the material? What is it, anyway - looks like carbon fibre on the front, but fibreglass at the rear?

iii. How difficult is the material to work? The experimental Boscombe Jaguar carbon fibre wing, complete with its LERX roots, was a pig to work & repair.


11232

If you wanted to make it look a bit less cluttered the i pad could go up quite a bit and make some space under earth. Also the fuse box doesn't need to go on the panel - you could put it inside, or swap its for a row of circuit breakers. a small VSI as mentioned would also make the gaps bigger and perhaps give more symmetry with the other instruments. We did that with our swift 2 panel.

Getting the compass out of the panel is usually a good plan - otherwise they always have big deviation from the electric guages and gadgets - iPad is quite bad in that regards - on our Swift 2 we have a pedestal compass on the top of the panel in the centre and it swings it off 10-15 degrees. So overhead is probably best plan anyway.

There is advice for cutting the holes in the manual, but don't forget cut inside the marks and open up to them carefully. Don't sand forwards and backwards or that can chip the edges if you are a bit aggressive - best to sand around the circumference. A black marker pen works well to leech colour into the edges and not leave any light bits so it doesn't show if you have made the holes just a bit big in places.

The material is carbon faced Glassfibre - much less effort to work than 100% Glassfibre. No problem putting the instruments as close together as the backsides will physically allow.

domt forget to allow for the choke cable run - but you could move that around a bit if necessary, or use a Bowden cable with pull and twist knob ( mini choke cable) to take the run around some curves.

chris's advice to make a dummy panel out of ply or similar is a good one. It doesnt take too long and allows you to ensure all fits, and to sit in and see the layout and decide on any changes before it is too late.

as regards carpet up the firewall, lots of owners haven't fitted it - or just a small bit at the top - if you do a neat job of putting on the firewall foam sheet it does the job - and remember that with the Side pockets on, they and the panel cover most of the firewall that you can see.

You say no room for GPS - but isn't that what the iPad has superseded with the fabulous Skydemon, or do you want two? If its another for standby then carrying it pre programmed as baggage is probably a good plan - not sure I have ever seen a microlight with two installed in the panel itself!

if you want a bigger panel it would be fairly simple to make a wider one - all that would need changing apart from the fascia ( which could be substituted to Ali) is a wider centre portion where the panel sides join. If you wanted it taller as well, that also could be done fairly simply - cut the sides down their length on the sides and add a fillet where it will be hidden by the side pockets. The beauty of homebuilding and the Nynja panel not being part of any carry though structure is that changes like this are really very simple to do and tailor things to your own personal nirvana. I have already had several people go the other way and fit electronic displays and cut the panel down smaller.

Paul

Riggers
17-04-14, 18:19 PM
Thanks, Paul: lots of good stuff in your generous response.

I'm not quite at the panel stage, yet, but getting closer. I've just spent a fruitless day & a half trying to get the tail controls rigged without the cables rubbing either themselves or the fibreglass; having only half succeeded on the latter bit, I've given up for now and I'm doing the engine plumbing to boost morale.

Dunno what to do now with the panel... anyone know how to get to the place in the picture?


Phil

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jjones
17-04-14, 19:36 PM
you can put an extra aware or similar up on the cross tube with a RAM mount

11236

Riggers
18-04-14, 06:46 AM
you can put an extra aware or similar up on the cross tube with a RAM mount...



Thanks, JJ: Might be an idea, although I take on board Paul's advice about electromagnetic interference to the compass, which I'm planning on putting under the junction of the cockpit overhead tubes.

Feeling like I'd do better flying a Nynja on Microsoft Flight Simulator at the moment... :-(

11237

CT Aviation
19-04-14, 17:48 PM
Well, Paul has been ( after arriving back in UK yesterday) and has poked and prodded my creation and has declared it passable for an aeroplane !
must publicly thank Paul for doing the inspections at short notice and fitting in around my availability.
so kit delivered 1/3/2014, final inspection complete 19/4/2014, and that's doing every weekend and two days during the week, the assembly bit is easy, we fought a bit with the lexan screen and the doors but an enjoyable process. Now to get all this paperwork off to BMAA with a hope I can get a permit to test before popham.

Riggers
19-04-14, 18:12 PM
Well, Paul has been ( after arriving back in UK yesterday) and has poked and prodded my creation and has declared it passable for an aeroplane !
must publicly thank Paul for doing the inspections at short notice and fitting in around my availability.
so kit delivered 1/3/2014, final inspection complete 19/4/2014, and that's doing every weekend and two days during the week, the assembly bit is easy, we fought a bit with the lexan screen and the doors but an enjoyable process. Now to get all this paperwork off to BMAA with a hope I can get a permit to test before popham.

Chris,

In a word. 'WOW'! Congratulations: I'm seriously impressed, and as I said on another thread, quite humbled.

I completed my engine plumbing this afternoon, by way of light relief from those bl**dy tail control cables, which have been an ongoing nightmare for perhaps EIGHT months now: I still can't get them to separate. :-(

Maybe if you're over Norfolk way in the new lady, you'd care to drop in? I'd be very interested in your build experiences. I'm about an hour from Sywell. (You could bring the graphics & give me a clue on fitting them!)

CT Aviation
19-04-14, 18:41 PM
I'd be more than happy to fly over, but be warned I'm no expert. A man with your background should have no problems getting the build done to a high standard. I'm just one of those sad organised people ( who according to my wife has an obsessive nature when it comes to completing things). Not sure I understand your issue with the cables .

Riggers
19-04-14, 19:16 PM
...A man with your background should have no problems getting the build done to a high standard...

It's only taught me how little I know. :-(

As I said, quite, quite, humbling.... I'd hoped to get it flyable by mid-year. Trouble is, it's probably not THIS year.

Paul Dewhurst
19-04-14, 22:46 PM
Chris,

In a word. 'WOW'! Congratulations: I'm seriously impressed, and as I said on another thread, quite humbled.

I completed my engine plumbing this afternoon, by way of light relief from those bl**dy tail control cables, which have been an ongoing nightmare for perhaps EIGHT months now: I still can't get them to separate. :-(

Maybe if you're over Norfolk way in the new lady, you'd care to drop in? I'd be very interested in your build experiences. I'm about an hour from Sywell. (You could bring the graphics & give me a clue on fitting them!)

if you are having trouble with cables talk to me - they are the same as Skyranger ones, so 250 plus in the UK and 1500 amateur built world wide are working fine, so I am sure we can sort it out.

Paul

pk1
19-04-14, 23:40 PM
Well, Paul has been ( after arriving back in UK yesterday) and has poked and prodded my creation and has declared it passable for an aeroplane !
must publicly thank Paul for doing the inspections at short notice and fitting in around my availability.
so kit delivered 1/3/2014, final inspection complete 19/4/2014, and that's doing every weekend and two days during the week, the assembly bit is easy, we fought a bit with the lexan screen and the doors but an enjoyable process. Now to get all this paperwork off to BMAA with a hope I can get a permit to test before popham.


Well done Chris , great news - So hope to see you flying it very soon and bringing it in to Sandy.

Peter

Riggers
20-04-14, 05:26 AM
if you are having trouble with cables talk to me - they are the same as Skyranger ones, so 250 plus in the UK and 1500 amateur built world wide are working fine, so I am sure we can sort it out.

Paul

Paul,

Thanks.

No question: my problems in the cable department are due to something I'm doing wrong, NOT the design or the quality of the machine. Obviously, it works: I had one!

My apologies if I gave any other impression - that was NOT my intention.

Phil

BTW: I've got a whole week this week to try and resolve it: Sarah's going on holiday and leaving me to get on with it - that's my holiday!

Riggers
23-04-14, 16:19 PM
And now, the 'wooden wonder'.... version 1 of the panel mockup.

It's OK, but I think I can do better - too much wasted space! The 'Air Gizmo adapter for th iPad was greedier than I'd planned.

Also, I need to try and raise the whole thing. The upright picture is from my flying perspective: there's at least 3" dead space above the panel I could use to get my knee out of view.

Hoping to see my analyst at Sywell on Friday for guidance....

CT Aviation
23-04-14, 18:46 PM
Looks good Phil, just a lick of varnish and it's done !

Riggers
23-04-14, 19:52 PM
Looks good Phil, just a lick of varnish and it's done !

Yeah, right!

The wooden mockup was a good idea: a full-size VSI WOULD have fouled the throttle. Mk 1 here features a 57mm VSI sourced by Paul, and although quite long, it's fine when located outboard. With Mk2, I hope to swap the Altimeter & ASI, as the former is slimmer and will ease the pressure at the lower left corner. I should be able to clean it up a bit & make more space, too.

Chris: your panel captions look particularly good: where did you source them?

CT Aviation
23-04-14, 20:30 PM
Made using a brother ptouch label machine. I brought it for doing all the Eurostar panels for Cosmik .

Riggers
27-04-14, 15:10 PM
Hmnnn.... I've almost finished cutting out the carbon fibre panel, and while the finish looks OK where instruments have a bezel to conceal the worked edge of the panel, some do not, merely poking through from the back, to simply lie flush with the panel. As a result, there's a light grey/cream-ish slightly fluffy edge, which has so far defied all attempts at refining. The problem is particularly evident around the complex Trig instrument 'compact' profile, and it looks a bit yak$hit, which is NOT good, since I'll spend so much time looking at it!

Anyone found a way to get a good finish? Is it my fitting skill, (or rather, the lack of it!) , or is it the best I can expect with the material?

I could always use a sheet of aloominum, I suppose...

johnny3star
27-04-14, 16:35 PM
so kit delivered 1/3/2014,
final inspection complete 19/4/2014,
and that's doing every weekend and two days during the week,
the assembly bit is easy, we fought a bit with the lexan screen and the doors but an enjoyable process.

That's incredibly fast !
I thought average Skyranger assembly time was around 500 hours?
Sounds like you almost halved that?

CT Aviation
27-04-14, 16:39 PM
Use some wet and dry paper wrapped around a suitable tool ( paint can for round holed, file for straight lines) f the edge goes " furry" run some thin superglue into the edge then sand the now solid fibres back. Use a permanent black marker to colour the edges, if you hold it against the edge it will wick into the fibres.
Hope this helps.

CT Aviation
27-04-14, 16:43 PM
That's incredibly fast !
I thought average Skyranger assembly time was around 500 hours?
Sounds like you almost halved that?
Not that fast, jut requires a bit of organisation and planning and I've done a little bit of this sort of thing before

Riggers
27-04-14, 17:34 PM
Thanks, Chris.

Think I might have b*ggerd this panel sheet anyway: it doesn't look quite 'flat' at the edges where I've most worked it, (around the Trig profiles). Bit sad, really: I'd left the most intricate bits until last. spending most of Saturday cutting the holes with a Dremel, then 'finishing' the circular holes OK. There's a moral there, somewhere...

Think I'll look at alternatives before trying another carbon jobby: never did like composites, anyway!

CT Aviation
27-04-14, 18:40 PM
Have you enough space to convert the trig holes to full circles and fit the supplied conversion pieces ?

Riggers
27-04-14, 19:15 PM
Have you enough space to convert the trig holes to full circles and fit the supplied conversion pieces ?

Unfortunately, no: the Nynja panel being a bit tight, I was hoping to exploit the Trig's 'compact' profile to get them all in.... :-(

You can probably see the 'curling' on the top left orifice.

As I said: looks a bit 'Yak$hit'. [It's an RAF technical term ;-)]

1131811319

Pete Clarke
28-04-14, 00:26 AM
How about finding some solid black plastic sheet to make a couple of decorative bezels for the trig gear and epoxy them to the panel?

Riggers
28-04-14, 18:17 PM
Pete: a good suggestion: thanks. It which set me thinking: I've found a company which can laser-cut aluminium panels from a CAD file. Trig are very kindly looking for a suitable file & in the mean time, I've sent the Trig documented dimensions to the company to see if they can work from that.

I've asked if they'd be interested in cutting the whole panel, or just a 'mini' panel for the Trig twins, to cover the mess I've made. I've no feel yet for the cost - probably render it unfeasible.

I may be accused of overkill, but being 'in yer face', the panel requires especial treatment, for my money.

Paul Dewhurst
28-04-14, 19:32 PM
That's incredibly fast !
I thought average Skyranger assembly time was around 500 hours?
Sounds like you almost halved that?

build time is is a moveable feast - it depends who is doing it and how it is being organised - a 1 hour session will waste over half that time looking at the manual to refresh, finding the tools an starting and then tidying up afterwards so build would take twice the hours compared to working say four hour stints. But might take less elapsed time and plane get finished sooner snatching five extra single hours a week rather than none.

Mods also soak up time - a 'vanilla build' may take half the time of a build with a few seemingly simple personalisations - its surprising how much time can be soaked up prototyping little ideas.

I have a chap just now fitting a 912is to a VLA Nynja - which hasn't been done before, and is quite a complex engine installation and may need some cowling modification, and he is fitting twin garmin screens and plans a two axis autopilot, and has designed his own fuel system with Anadair super whizzy components etc, and a host of other small details - and he is something of a perfectionist. His build will undoubtably take well over 500 hours - But it is the build satisfaction he wants, and he has a Swift to fly in the meantime, so he won't be rushed.

I inspected another Nynja last night that is being built with loads of race car trick bits, custom carbon honeycomb floor and instrument panel, and spats, and a host of other detail changes, and a custom paint job with red bull theme. it won't be the quickest build in terms of hours spent but will be something really special, and progress is really quite brisk for results achieved so far.

' Admiring' is a common cause of build delay - especially if you have a lot of mates that want to come and have a look and interrupt you. I know one serial builder who had his own hangar, and would park his car off airfield sneak in and lock the hangar door behind him so he wouldn't be bothered!

i reckon I can knock a standard build together in around 100 -120 hours, someone reasonably mechanical but first time may take around 250, and someone who let their dad mend the punctures on their bike and wife assemble the IKEA furniture may take 500 hours or more. It also depends on how much of a perfectionist you are. Wanting perfect fits and a level of detail that otherfolk probably won't notice can double the build time compared to another build to a slightly less fussy but perfectly reasonable standard.

The panel is a good example - the airframe can be structurally completely assembled in around 4-5 days of work, and fussing over a complex instrument panel fit can take some folk rather longer!

The key thing is to enjoy it - dont build just because it saves money compared to buying a readybuilt - you have to want the satisfaction of creating something yourself as well - or it will just be a frustrating chore.

Although it must be said that a build of something like a Skyranger / Nynja is fantastically quick and simple and within the scope of 'everyman' compared to the labour of love that was traditional homebuilding - building wooden or all metal aircraft from plans, which took a hell of a lot of dedication and many thousands of hours.

It can be a landmark life achievement thing to do ( its an extremely small,percentage of the population that create an aeroplane in their garage!) and has lots of knock on advantages in knowledge and skills gained to operate and maintain the aircraft once it is up and running.

I love it and got a lot of pleasure recently from scheming and executing our new Swift 2 model with a host of small changes and tweaks to improve it. paperwork is in with BMAA, and they were working on it today, and ETA for first flight is this Thursday.. :) looks like Chris's machine will also get paperwork around the same time - so two maiden flights for me this week if all goes well!

Paul

johnny3star
28-04-14, 20:43 PM
That’sgood information Paul, thanks.
Oursyndicates Swift has over 1,000 hours now, so we are starting to eye up newermodels.
We arecurrently considering any decent low hours Swift or Nynja that comes to market,as an upgrade.
(butwe’re not keen on the Zanzibar Nynja with twin sticks currently on Afors)
Untilrecently, we hadn’t considered building a kit, but this thread has made methink twice about it.
Iliked the look of the Swift 2 at the flying show, I will follow it’s developmentwith interest.
Cheers
JM

Riggers
17-05-14, 15:27 PM
HELP, PLEASE:

I'm geared to go on the panel:

i. Got a firm lined up to laser cut one from 3mm aloominum, if I can giver them a CAD file.

ii. Bought some CAD software & am frantically trying to get to grips with it.

iii. Finalising the design: it's going to be marginally bigger, (height-wise), mounted perhaps 2 inches higher for legroom and to use up wasted vision space. Also, it'll be rectangular, (the original isn't, quite), and the corners more regularly radiussed, to ease manufacture, and make better use of the corners.

PROBLEM: Being aluminium, it will need finishing; I'd looked at anodising but that costs stupid money, so it's going to be painted in Flint Farm blue, requiring an etch primer. Anyone got a clue what that will do to the dimensions of the instrument holes? How thick is a coat of paint? What should I allow, say, for a 57mm instrument? I don't want to have to sand a painted surface to get the instruments to fit; much better to include an allowance for the paint at cutting time, but how much? Too much, and it'll look as bad as the carbon fibre one I tried making.

Any advice gratefully received....

Phil

johnny3star
17-05-14, 19:17 PM
Not sure Phil, I would guess an extra 1mm would be plenty.
i.e get holes cut 58mm?

Or get another panel from Foggy and try to get it like C.Ts

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9FQOFwUN9vE/U3elUYhFzaI/AAAAAAAAFUY/QRl9DsMWM8o/s720/P1130901.JPG

Riggers
17-05-14, 19:51 PM
Thanks, John.

CT's panel is OK, but clearly, you can see it's been done in haste...

Riggers,

[Voted bitch of the year, 2014]

BTW: is this the heater?:

11395

CT Aviation
17-05-14, 20:17 PM
Yep that's the heater ( placard says so), all done in as you say Phil "in haste", now with 14 hours on it and off for another day out in it tomorrow !

johnny3star
17-05-14, 20:40 PM
You two crack me up !
But I'm hooked on any Nynja build threads, as I may buy a kit soon (to upgrade G-CEZE).
I would still prefer to buy an existing Nynja, (cash waiting) but no one seems to be selling !

I would even consider a part-built example ;-}https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9FQOFwUN9vE/U3elUYhFzaI/AAAAAAAAFVY/U6nYu1dosoc/s637/P1130901.JPG

The heater control looked OK to me Phil

Riggers
17-05-14, 20:48 PM
....now with 14 hours on it and off for another day out in it tomorrow.....

Yes, yes, yes.... but, I mean, you haven't had the REAL FUN, of being able to savour it, parked, like a beached whale in the hangar for months/years on end. I mean, that's where the REAL joy is!

1139611397

Ah, well, maybe next year. [But then again, maybe not...]

johnny3star
17-05-14, 21:10 PM
Phil
All things considered,
I can't believe how small this particular box is ?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y6Rli1nanwg/U3fBezTlLBI/AAAAAAAAFVk/nR8GVDwGAHc/s145/Nynja%2520G-TIDY%2520%2528panel%2520stuff%2529.jpg

Riggers
17-05-14, 22:14 PM
Phil
All things considered,
I can't believe how small this particular box is ?
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-y6Rli1nanwg/U3fBezTlLBI/AAAAAAAAFVk/nR8GVDwGAHc/s145/Nynja%2520G-TIDY%2520%2528panel%2520stuff%2529.jpg

Have you been reading without your glasses, again?

I told you & everyone that the Nynja's dash is like a Panel, but smaller. Think 'Hornby Dublo'.

This box was actually FlyLight's Annual Nynja panel consignment, for last year....

It was lying empty in the corner, at Sywell, when I borrowed it to get two washers home. It could barely cope.

Riggers
17-05-14, 22:23 PM
.... no one seems to be selling...

John, quite, quite, amazing: where I am, no one seems to be asking!

Pete Clarke
17-05-14, 23:46 PM
You could always use the old fashioned way of finishing aluminium on your panel. I believe it was achieved using a fine abrasive on the end of a cork disc or similar to produce rows of touching circles. Very fancy and took ages to do which I suspect is why you don't see it nowadays.

Incidentally I saw CT's aircraft at Sutton Meadows t'other day. Very nice machine. You'd never know that he built it in 20 minutes during his lunch break!

Riggers
18-05-14, 08:58 AM
That's a good call, Pete: I recall the finish on the 'E-Type' in the 60s: very attractive.

From memory, there's even a brief sequence of it being applied to the engine cowlings of the 'Spirit of St Louis' replica built for the Jimmy Stewart movie about Charles Lindbergh. Y'know, the one where Jimmy, [a personal hero of mine], says: "Y-Yah mean this thing can FLY????"

I think it would be applied to the alloy sheet, prior to cutting.

Paul Dewhurst
18-05-14, 09:18 AM
For an aluminium panel, powder coating is the way to go - far more durable than a paint finish. Thickness will depend on who does it, but they should be able to tell you. We use a very good powder coater close to Sywell - Oneil Coatings. tel:01933 676587. by the time you have bought etch primer paint, degreaser and scotch brite etc to do the job it won't be much if any cheaper than getting them to powder coat it.

Paul

Riggers
18-05-14, 09:40 AM
Thanks, Paul.

I'll give them a call.

Riggers
21-05-14, 09:30 AM
An update: I spoke to O'Neill Coatings, about powder coating the new alloy panel, as Paul suggested.

They advised that I shouldn't add much to the instrument hole dimensions to allow for the coating. The thickness is measured in a few hundred microns, each of which I think is 1/1000 mm. (Still think in £sd!). Also, there are a range of colours from which to select.

In the meantime, I've got my new CAD package and expect some training material later today. The first thing I want to learns is how to switch most of the features off: there are so many bells and whistles in it, the simple bits, (circles, rectangles & arcs), are difficult to spot!

geejay
21-05-14, 23:01 PM
Tell me about it, I have vector works and it was a nightmare at first so I took. One day training course and it was enough for me to be able to draw just about anything in 2d, not got into the 3d yet and probably won't.

Riggers
22-05-14, 10:08 AM
... it was a nightmare at first...

Gee whizz... the training material resembles two of the larger volumes from Encyclopaedia Britannica!

Still, I suppose I can always drill them in one corner & use them for tie-down weights.

11406

geejay
22-05-14, 23:16 PM
I'm pretty hopeless with manual, but someone show me and I'm fine, reminds me of triangles of velocity!

Riggers
31-05-14, 16:38 PM
So, realising I'm not going to break any speed records learning CAD, and the panel is holding me up, I thought I'd knock a working solution up in 3mm alloy, & complete the CAD one in slow time....

11433

Although it's a bit rough n' ready, it's reassuringly robust, and the wacky Trig holes worked quite well, this time, unlike my carbon attempt. I spent today getting each instrument to fit its appropriate hole, doing the iPad dock hole last, cut in accordance with the dimensions on the sheet that came with it.....

...only to find out the vertical 8" dimension specified, should, in fact, be 7.25". :shootself:


I've given up for today, feeling close to suicidal. This is the THIRD panel I've made, (1 carbon, this one, and a wooden one used as a space model). Think I'll stick with the CAD solution: at least if it's wrong, revising & re-fabricating should be easy.

geejay
01-06-14, 08:42 AM
Riggers, I feel for you, I can sense the frustration in your text.....

Riggers
13-06-14, 15:06 PM
We now have the technology....

I collected the new laser-cut panel this morning and while it's not yet spot-on, it's the dog's wotsits. :-)

I think I've mentioned the wooden mock-up panel I made earlier, more to prove the instrument logic, than anything. That panel was based on the carbon fibre item supplied with the kit. With me on board, it looked like this:

11466
That's my leg fouling the lower edge. Here's the new CAD-derived version:
11465

The panel itself isn't much bigger than the carbon one, but it's designed to sit 40mm higher and the edge curves have slightly increased radiusses, er, radiuses, er radii... well, you know what I mean... Using the CAD approach, on 3 mm aluminium plate, you can be brave to the point of stupid with the spacings. The crucial bit for me is the Trig cut-outs are absolutely PERFECT , which accounts mostly for the panel's Riggers' Dog's Wotsits award. I can even get my leg under it, (see photo 2), and I just hope a certain special lady flyer in Chatteris appreciates the care I took to ensure I can still view the world outside! Both radio & transponder are almost in my line of sight to outside, important to me as I want to learn how to use them properly, if I ever get this thing airborne.

So, it's taken a bit of time, a few tears, some expense, (buying the CAD package & the training material, plus some professional advice), but I can now do controlled design, quick, CONSISTENT manufacture and once done, can change or refine the design at the drop of a hat. This panel instance is now being fitted as a trial fit: I've still to decide switch & other minor item positions, (choke & heater). I'll do that mostly by Mk1 thumb & eyeball, during the trial installation. Once all the niggles are addressed, I'll refine the CAD design and get a new panel made, then powder-coat to finish, as advised by Paul.

CT Aviation
13-06-14, 15:45 PM
Looks good Phil, I'd best get on with your graphics !, I now have a full permit on mine so can fly anywhere now without having to bother Paul to add extra airfields.
PS, it was pink and orange you wanted wasn't it ????!!!!!!!

Riggers
13-06-14, 16:27 PM
.... so can fly anywhere now without having to bother Paul to add extra airfields.....

Longham International now mown & fully active, but PPR me to clear the sheep.


...it was pink and orange you wanted wasn't it ????!!!!!!!

Only at weekends, so if you can make it easily changeable, it will save me the need to buy TWO Nynjas.

Katie
13-06-14, 17:47 PM
I just hope a certain special lady flyer in Chatteris appreciates the care I took to ensure I can still view the world outside!


Much appreciated, especially if you are in the Chatteris area :-) Drop in for a cup of tea and biscuits when you get it flying.

Riggers
22-06-14, 18:48 PM
Thanks, Katie, will do, but last time I went to Chatteris, I got confused with the number of runways, and things (people) falling out of the sky all around me....

Progress report: now at the second trial installation, & it's not far off:



11548

I hadn't a clue about how to position the screw holes for the instruments, whose positions WERE known, in terms of X & Y coordinates, to the CAD application. I took a gamble: measured them by hand (to 2 significant fag packets), then used basic trigonometry to derive their positions. I collected the laser-cut panle on Friday, Fearing the worst. Blow me down: all of them aligned PERFECTLY, not even requiring 'cleaning' with a drill. Beginner's luck, I guess.

This second (full) fit is already paying dividends: It's showed I need to move the 6 instruments on the left, as a group, 10mm to the right to prevent fouling of the coaming brackets; I've missed completely a hole for the slip indicator, (thought it mounted flush). Also, the switches clash with a panel mounting bracket on the right and the choke will require a major re-think, but I have a cunning plan m'lord....

Overall, I'm well chuffed with it and I reckon the third cut will sort it. The scary bit will be getting the coaming sides to fit, as it stands perhaps 35mm taller than the standard Nynja panel. The good news is that the brake lever ball end doesn't foul the panel, even in kamikaze position (fully forward). I'm taking the ball off, anyway.

Shadowman
22-06-14, 19:06 PM
Have you checked that the brake lever doesn't collide with your Ipad screen when the stick is fully forward?

Riggers
22-06-14, 20:11 PM
Have you checked that the brake lever doesn't collide with your Ipad screen when the stick is fully forward?

11549

Looks OK, so far, & as I said, the ball's coming off, anyway.

CT Aviation
24-06-14, 19:28 PM
I've just done this for a customers Nynja, took me about an hour !!!! Not really Phil took a couple of days but a bit of planning and it all fitted nicely.11556

Riggers
24-06-14, 21:58 PM
Looks nice, Chris.

I had no problem with the round and square holes in the carbon panel, but it was the wacky Trig ones which caused me heartache. Fortunately, using CAD has sorted it:

11558

I sent my third CAD design, (hopefully the final, 'production' version), for laser cutting today...

11557

Of course the next problem is housing the two trig boxes: I've found a tempting location, but I fear it might be too hot in that area, unless I can duct the heater output away from them, They could mount awfully nicely here, with a bit of protection:

11559

CT Aviation
24-06-14, 22:19 PM
This is what I put in that location.

Riggers
25-06-14, 06:02 AM
Aha!

That was to be my next question to my inspector: whether it's OK to drill the white noseleg plate....

Paul Dewhurst
25-06-14, 08:25 AM
Aha!

That was to be my next question to my inspector: whether it's OK to drill the white noseleg plate....

Yes its fine to drill to fix rectifier regulator and solenoid as Chris has done - and it's shown in the manual as a fitting position option - fig237. Alternatively you can fit them on the firewall.

I would suggest to put radio and transponder boxes on the floor under the centre console - more space and more isolated from any vibration.

Paul

Riggers
20-07-14, 07:54 AM
An update: the panel now at version 4 – close to final design, I hope!

The 4 smaller remaining holes are for switches, the larger two for USB and DIN power sockets:

11603

The next task is connecting up: shouldn't be difficult....

11607

Riggers
30-07-14, 09:27 AM
And finally, (for a while, at least), the panel at version 5: complete! It's been a long road, but I'm very pleased with the result, & the new Garmin sits well on top:

11619
I've still got to powder coat it, of course, and sort the coaming, which might be a bit short, due to the panel standing ~35mm taller. At least that will enable me to get my legs in, without having to have a Bader...

Riggers
21-09-14, 18:07 PM
Er, well, I thought it was finished at version 5, but no, it had to go one more stage - the stick JUST fouled the heater control.

AT LAST!!!! here's version 6, now resplendent in a tasteful silver/grey powder coat, & I’m rather pleased with it:

11717

This is as close as the lever gets to it, but I still intend to remove the ball-end.

11718

I've done the binnacle coaming panels: they area surprisingly good fit, given that this is a hybrid panel. However, I don't think they do the panel justice, so I'm starting again... this time I hope to do it properly!

CT Aviation
21-09-14, 18:40 PM
Almost there now Phil ! Just over 70 hours on mine now !

Chris

Riggers
21-09-14, 19:31 PM
Almost there now Phil ! Just over 70 hours on mine now !

Chris
Chris,

I think yours will be scrapped, or in a museum, by the time mine's finished... :-(

CT Aviation
21-09-14, 19:46 PM
Will yours be finished before the oil runs out ?

Riggers
21-09-14, 20:07 PM
Will yours be finished before the oil runs out ?

Probably not: I'll have to power it on willpower...

johnny3star
22-09-14, 08:02 AM
Almost there now Phil ! Just over 70 hours on mine now !

Chris

Surely you've had enough of it by now?
It must be nearly time to move it on to a new owner?
How much do you want for it?
JM
G-CEZE

Riggers
22-09-14, 08:54 AM
Surely you've had enough of it by now?
It must be nearly time to move it on to a new owner?
How much do you want for it?
JM
G-CEZE

How much are you offering? :-)

johnny3star
22-09-14, 10:18 AM
Oursyndicate is considering building one this winter, for completion by nextspring.
However, we’dprefer to buy a nice pre-built ready-to-fly example, simply forless hassle.
A nice spec’70-hour model (even with a modest builders premium) would fit the bill nicely?
JM
G-CEZE

(mind you, Ido like Phil’s mk7 panel)

CT Aviation
22-09-14, 19:00 PM
Sorry someone has already got 1st refusal on it when the time comes

Paul Dewhurst
22-09-14, 20:43 PM
Get your order in quickly for a winter build John - clocks ticking!

Paul

johnny3star
23-09-14, 08:02 AM
It looks like I will be coming to see you again soon Paul.
2nd hand Nynjas seem to be as rare as hens-teeth?

Paul Dewhurst
23-09-14, 08:18 AM
With a new one you get the latest spec soft start engine with full warranty, and also the option of LS spec for the airframe. Price is slightly less just now that it was a year or so back as well due to better exchange rate.

You know it makes sense...!

Pau

Wanafly Flyer
23-09-14, 09:43 AM
Having recently played with Wanaflys new Swift 2....Go and get one!!

It was awesome, fantastic roll rate and inherent stability.

Riggers
26-09-14, 16:17 PM
With a new one you get the latest spec soft start engine....
Pau

.... with (the) additional weight (of a sprag clutch?) thrown in...! :-)

bryannortje
26-09-14, 17:01 PM
11724Here's a Pic of my Nynja's Panel....

Riggers
26-09-14, 17:16 PM
Bryan: WOW! that's very nice.

Is that the normal carbon panel?

CT Aviation
26-09-14, 17:49 PM
What's this a " my panel is bigger than yours" contest ?

Riggers
26-09-14, 18:18 PM
What's this a " my panel is bigger than yours" contest ?

Oh, ignore HIM, Bryan: d'you know, he took TWO attempts to get it right, well, almost right...

CT Aviation
26-09-14, 18:53 PM
I've actually got Bryan's panel which he kindly donated after my original mistake of mounting the radio and transponder right where the aileron cables run.
Mines got prettier graphics though !

johnny3star
26-09-14, 22:12 PM
Nice Panel Bryan, G-TORO looks good !
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bEjxlCZl9Ls/VCXVxJ051XI/AAAAAAAAFno/lWXxeHKjEO0/s341/G-TORO%2520small.jpg

I see it's flying already (a 2013 build)
Are you considering selling anytime soon?
JM
G-CEZE

Riggers
27-09-14, 06:47 AM
.....I see it's flying already (a 2013 build)...
JM
G-CEZE

WHAAAAAAAT?????

FAR too soon. <Harrumph!>

Mark my words: no good will come of all this indecent haste....

Paul Dewhurst
27-09-14, 16:43 PM
.... with (the) additional weight (of a sprag clutch?) thrown in...! :-)

Ahh - technical words alert! - A sprag clutch is the thing that makes your starter motor turn the engine, but the engine not turn your starter motor. A clever little blighter that looks like a bearing, but with with rollers and ramps so it locks when driven. its name often accompanied with a curse - as some aircraft eat them after a while and the engine tries to tear itself out of the frame on start as all snarls up - and its a bit deep inside the engine so a bit of a plaver / costly to have swapped out for new one. All the 912 series engine have them, always have.


But I think you mean the overload (slipper) clutch, that helps stop the crank twisting when you smash your prop into the ground with throttle open. Yes it now comes a standard at no extra cost on the S, when it used to cost another £500 or so to add. It can be had without, but costs nearly £500 for Rotax to take it out again..! So far all my customers have deselected the take it out option and decided to keep it and its 1.5Kg weight penalty.

Paul

Riggers
28-09-14, 07:06 AM
......I think you mean the overload (slipper) clutch......

Paul

THAT'S the one! :-) I think my 'SPRAG' term must have come from my Wessex days, long ago.... silly old fool!

11725

Thanks, Paul.

johnny3star
28-09-14, 20:57 PM
WHAAAAAAAT?????

FAR too soon. <Harrumph!>

Mark my words: no good will come of all this indecent haste....

Note to myself.
Don’t for gawds sak mention any of the Nynjas which were only registered this year, 2014,
particularly the three I have seen flying, or the complete one at Ince awaiting it’s test flight.

Hang on, have I just typed out my thoughts? Doh, where’s the edit button?

Riggers
28-09-14, 21:17 PM
John, JOHN!!!

Calm yourself: like most things in life, we seem to have forgotten, (hence why we're so happy!), it's NOT a race... less haste, more speed, y'know!

Have you tried decaffeinated?

Phil

bryannortje
01-10-14, 14:01 PM
Bryan: WOW! that's very nice.

Is that the normal carbon panel?

No not the standard size one. Mine is a couple inches wider each side but same outer profile (just stretched)

Now having flown over 50hrs I am rather happy with the layout and practicality of the config. :smiley-vault-misc-0

bryannortje
01-10-14, 14:08 PM
Nice Panel Bryan, G-TORO looks good !
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bEjxlCZl9Ls/VCXVxJ051XI/AAAAAAAAFno/lWXxeHKjEO0/s341/G-TORO%2520small.jpg

I see it's flying already (a 2013 build)
Are you considering selling anytime soon?
JM
G-CEZE

Took delivery of the Kit in October 2013. Pre-registered with CAA as i wanted the G-TORO Reg to follow the theme hence why its 2013 build. Paul Dewhurst completed Test Flight in July and we now have 52 hrs on it. I guess anything is for sale at the right price - :hammer:

Riggers
02-10-14, 18:44 PM
Took delivery of the Kit in October 2013.... Paul Dewhurst completed Test Flight in July....

Well done, Bryan, a very laudable build performance, with an impressive result. I'm now looking at the wiring on mine.

CT Aviation
02-10-14, 19:03 PM
Paul delivered my kit and I got him to hang about for a couple of hours so he could test fly it !
Good job I did get mine built when I did as I've been packed out with eurostar repairs ever since with still lots more to do, it pays for my flying though !
now Phil, the black thing with two bolts on the top is called a battery, the coloured string like stuff you've been using to tie your trousers up to keep the ferrets in is called wire. You have to connect all the wire stuff to all the correct bits and the battery then all the toys light up ( or all the smoke escapes):fighting0024:

Riggers
02-10-14, 19:56 PM
Paul delivered my kit and I got him to hang about for a couple of hours so he could test fly it !....

Oh Chris! you're obviously one of those S-L-O-W builders:

Whatever you do, don't let John find out...

Riggers
02-10-14, 20:03 PM
.....now Phil, the black thing with two bolts on the top is called a battery, the coloured string like stuff you've been using to tie your trousers up to keep the ferrets in is called wire. You have to connect all the wire stuff to all the correct bits and the battery then all the toys light up ( or all the smoke escapes):fighting0024:

Yes yes, but: does it matter which way I connect it, or does it just have to look sort of 'technical'?

CT Aviation
02-10-14, 21:17 PM
Yes yes, but: does it matter which way I connect it, or does it just have to look sort of 'technical'?
If the smoke comes out just connect it the other way then collect all the smoke and put it back in ( you must make sure you catch every last bit of smoke to put back in or you will forever have radio problems)

bryannortje
03-10-14, 13:21 PM
If the smoke comes out just connect it the other way then collect all the smoke and put it back in ( you must make sure you catch every last bit of smoke to put back in or you will forever have radio problems)

Yeh also the smell tends to hang around forever too !!:neener:

Riggers
19-10-14, 17:16 PM
Well, you'd better sit down, or at least brace yourselves - The panel's bl**dy FINISHED!!!!! [In the end, it was either me, or it, and it was a pretty close-run thing :yipes:]

11768

11769

I'm quite pleased, although it was almost a day over target.... [large portion of tongue in cheek, there, just for Johnny...]

There's something written somewhere about a build being required to take 500 hours. Reckon I've spent that on the panel, & it's still nowhere near Bryans' sophistication. Mind you, I always did go for the simple, but chic look, like when we go out to dinner...

11770

Riggers
19-10-14, 17:22 PM
Took delivery of the Kit in October 2013. Pre-registered with CAA as i wanted the G-TORO Reg to follow the theme hence why its 2013 build. Paul Dewhurst completed Test Flight in July and we now have 52 hrs on it. I guess anything is for sale at the right price - :hammer:


There, you go, John: it's ready & waiting: having seen it, I think the price should start somewhere around £100K, when you include Bryan's 'value-add'.


No excuses now!

bryannortje
19-10-14, 20:38 PM
Well, you'd better sit down, or at least brace yourselves - The panel's bl**dy FINISHED!!!!! [In the end, it was either me, or it, and it was a pretty close-run thing :yipes:]

11768

11769

I'm quite pleased, although it was almost a day over target.... [large portion of tongue in cheek, there, just for Johnny...]

There's something written somewhere about a build being required to take 500 hours. Reckon I've spent that on the panel, & it's still nowhere near Bryans' sophistication. Mind you, I always did go for the simple, but chic look, like when we go out to dinner...

11770

Lookin good Phil. I think your panel looks great and I'm sure was worth the effort. What's next ???

Riggers
19-10-14, 21:08 PM
Thanks, Bryan, but I think you're being particularly generous.

The next bit is the fitting of the radio & transponder antennas, (antennae?), in order to derive the dimensions required for the wiring looms. There is, as I complained when we met, a lack of clarity (certainly on my part), as to what I have to conform. On one side, there appear ivory towers of regulation, on another, informed manufacturer advice, and yet another: the physical constraints of the aircraft structure. That's obviously all EAZY, according to the pundits. However, at least in my case, I have to then factor in: i. the laws of physics, where equipments don't work in isolation, so that fitting one bit declares a 'no-go' area for the next one; and ii. My own bl**dy stupidity: I don't understand the science, so it's mostly smoke n' mirrors.

The result is a fool, in isolation, trying to make wise decisions.

So, otherwise, it's all going quite well; I'm thinking of writing a book about it: something like: "Zen, & the art of Nynja building: how I confronted myself, & lost"...

johnny3star
20-10-14, 07:57 AM
The finished panel looks great Phil, nice job.
JM

Riggers
20-10-14, 08:59 AM
Thanks, John: I can sleep, at last!

johnny3star
24-10-14, 10:26 AM
We called in and had a look at Phils panel yesterday, on the way back from Sywell.
I must say, the finished article is extremely neat, it’s got a real professional finish.

It may of taken, er, well, a few attempts to get right, but was well worth the extra effort in my view.
JM


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SCEnzrG41yc/VEoZAsqWrZI/AAAAAAAAFoQ/HUchq66cwDg/s512/IMG_2063.JPG

CT Aviation
24-10-14, 10:40 AM
Nice graphics too !

Riggers
24-10-14, 15:19 PM
Thanks, John: Nice to see you both: hope the visit helped you reach a conclusion in your deliberations. No contest, really: after a Nynja, anything else has to be less. Oh, and as I said, I can give you a good discount on a couple of hundred panels...

11778

Come again anytime, but PPR, just to make sure the sheep are clear.

Your departure:

11775 11776 11777



Phil
Panels R Us

Riggers
24-10-14, 17:07 PM
Nice graphics too !

Well, THANKS, Chris: <lie>All my own work, by hand, y'know.... </lie>

Riggers
24-10-14, 17:11 PM
Oops... any way I can delete a duplicate post?

Rick Moss
24-10-14, 20:39 PM
Nope, but I can :-)

Riggers
24-10-14, 21:17 PM
Rick: you won't appreciate the joy that gives me....

Here, the forecast for G-TIDY completion is slipping now to sometime 2016... (with luck), but hey, flying always WAS such a drag, anyway. <siigh>

DEEEEP JOY....

johnny3star
26-11-14, 10:27 AM
Our syndicate has now placed an order for a Nynja kit with Flylight.
Delivery is expected in January 2015.
Our panel planning has already begun, there’s certainly plenty to consider.
JM

micromikeuk
26-11-14, 10:52 AM
Buy one of Riggers and save yourself a couple of months :>)





Our panel planning has already begun, there’s certainly plenty to consider.
JM

dave nixon
26-11-14, 13:16 PM
Here we go John copy this one it's the demo model

bryannortje
26-11-14, 14:03 PM
When planning your panel, don't assume that you have to have the Fuse Box mounted on it. To be fair it can be mounted next to the battery as that area is easily accessible too. This will allow a bit more space on the Panel. I think just about everyone mounts it there as we all look at someone elses kit and they have it on the Panel so think that is where it has to be. :hanged:

dave nixon
26-11-14, 15:20 PM
Hi Brian see you're point I always like fuses where they can be changed in flight,everyone has preferences

Riggers
26-11-14, 16:04 PM
Buy one of Riggers and save yourself a couple of months :>)

Not to mention the nervous breakdown (s)!!!!

Phil

(She never knew I drank, until I came home sober, once....)

johnny3star
26-11-14, 20:12 PM
I'm thinking of something like this ?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-pCzbvsnl1Tc/VHYl2WKggtI/AAAAAAAAFpQ/HWzJooR4IPU/s640/flash%2520panel%25202%2520shrunk.jpg

Just compressed a little?
JM

micromikeuk
26-11-14, 21:02 PM
I would definitely go for that type of throttle over the standard skyranger one

dave nixon
26-11-14, 21:24 PM
Only trouble with that mike u need two right hands,when u are fettling throttle on approach need hand on stick

Paul Dewhurst
26-11-14, 22:06 PM
LoL - yes you would become a twisted hunch back with centre stick and single centre throttle!

There is a twin stick mod for the Skyranger, and then a centre throttle works. Its normally done with a lever though where the centre stick would have been - like the CT.

But then have to fly all GA with left hand on the stick. Ok if you are left handed, but right handers lose that last few percent of handling finesse. And you have the stick in your lap space so awkward to rest a map in continuous plain sight - and you lose all that baggage space on the floor under your knees.

I have wondered why the US spam cans popularised the left hand on control column right hand on throttle set up. Best theory I have heard is that reflects the type of flying where ATC dominates and the right hand can hold a pen and write all those read backs down whilst left hand steers the machine.

fighter pilots fly right hand on stick - so naturally it has to be the best for us..:)


Paul

micromikeuk
26-11-14, 23:50 PM
???? You can reach throttle in centre lefthand or righthand what's the problem ?? I fly ctsw lefthand or righthand so do instructors so do most GA pilots surely there not better than us :)

Paul Dewhurst
27-11-14, 00:10 AM
???? You can reach throttle in centre lefthand or righthand what's the problem ?? I fly ctsw lefthand or righthand so do instructors so do most GA pilots surely there not better than us :)

stick is in the centre Mike, so with throttle in the centre both would be on fuselage centreline. So in left seat you would fly with right hand on the stick. To operate the throttle you would have to have your left arm across the front of your body - very much a stress position to get to the throttle and not comfortable and with arm at a 45 degree or more angle to get to it its not going to be good for fine control either.

it would be like trying to fly your CT from the left seat with right hand on stick and left on throttle.

This is why side by side seating aeroplanes are not designed with both throttle and stick on fuselage centreline. I think the snowbird is the only one that did it and this feature was universally despised as crack handed and awkward.


Paul

johnny3star
27-11-14, 09:06 AM
We are quite happy with the standard Nynja throttle arrangement.
The puzzle is finding space in the panel for our current instrument wishlist.
Analogue instruments, an AI, a panel radio & transponder and an ipadmini dock?
It looks like we may have to incorporate some kind of EFIS / EMS, andloose some gauges.

Paul Dewhurst
27-11-14, 09:30 AM
Take alook at this http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/ps/ipad_mounts1/ipadair13-15978.php its the best iPad min dock I have seen so far - its going in our new Nynja demonstrator..

All you want will fit, has been fitted before with the exception of an A1. If its a small face unit then you might be able to use the space normally reserved for the round slip ball, and replace that with a strip type. problem is that even if you consolidate the engine instruments into an EFIS, that only frees up space on the right side, and an A1 for best effect should be directly in front of you.

engine instruments, panel mount radio and transponder will all fit right side of a centrally mounted iPad mini. GNINJ in our hangar is like that - even with a surface mount fuse box - which could easily be moved off the panel.

Paul

johnny3star
27-11-14, 13:53 PM
Yes, that dock looks like the one to have,cheers.

As for the AI, I saw several at Telford.
I quite liked the look of the KanardiaEmsis, but the salesman wasn’t too clear about dual EFIS / EMS combined on 1unit?
http://www.kanardia.eu/products/emsis (http://www.kanardia.eu/products/emsis)
Another very interesting new product, thistime from MGL was the iEFIS Discovery Light
http://www.parts4aircraft.com/mgl-avionics-discovery-lite-c102x2344979 (http://www.parts4aircraft.com/mgl-avionics-discovery-lite-c102x2344979)

dave nixon
27-11-14, 14:11 PM
John put a swift dash in loads of room then

johnny3star
27-11-14, 14:25 PM
Trouble is Dave, the door pillars aren't vertical, they rake forward slightly.
Hence the binnacle panel used on the Nynjas and Swift 2s.

dave nixon
27-11-14, 18:24 PM
Get a dash laser cut to suit ,I know it's a fag but better to have analogue instruments,leaves more room for big I pad or mini

Riggers
27-11-14, 18:34 PM
We are quite happy with the standard Nynja throttle arrangement.
The puzzle is finding space in the panel for our current instrument wishlist.
Analogue instruments, an AI, a panel radio & transponder and an ipadmini dock?
It looks like we may have to incorporate some kind of EFIS / EMS, andloose some gauges.




John,

I don't see your problem with the standard (ish) Nynja Panel. Mine includes all on your list, apart from the AI.

11896

Using CAD, it's far from 'full', & if I wanted, I could relocate the radio & transponder down to where the slip ball is, relocating that under the iPad. The switches provide scope for manoeuvre, & the fusebox could be moved elsewhere, as dicussed above. My two power sockets could go on the binncale sides or top. I wouldn't expect problems accommodating another 85mm instrument.

Happy to nock up a rough schematic, if you can give me instrument sizes....

Phil

CT Aviation
27-11-14, 18:42 PM
11897I did this on mine ( haven't yet gone down the iPad route) but did one for a customer with ipad, picture below.

11898

johnny3star
27-11-14, 19:11 PM
Cheers Phil, it’s highly likely we’ll be having an aluminium panelsimilar to yours.

I’m sure when the time comes, I’ll be along with the desired layout forsome CAD help.
It’s very early days at the moment though, we haven’t even got the kityet!
So there’s nothing set in stone, apart from ipad mini and panel radio& transponder.

Good to look at the latest stuff at Telford last weekend, and bounceround a few ideas.
I quite liked the panel setup in the E-go; an 8” Nesis EFIS/EMS unit.
A snip at a mere £3,600 inc vat.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xuCJlspZNVg/VHdo_odpRRI/AAAAAAAAFpo/a6g6FPBwq5s/s512/IMG_2546.JPG

johnny3star
27-11-14, 19:15 PM
Cheers Chris,
I had a good look at it at Popham.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RuZoHZsH8Lw/VHdp7yYkgwI/AAAAAAAAFpw/RBJHPb4hrBk/s640/Nynja%2520Panel%2520G-CIJT.jpg

Riggers
27-12-14, 14:54 PM
And a very Merry Christmas to all our readers...

Not so merry here, grappling with electrickery: it's all smoke n' mirrors, (with lots of the former), to me.

Having provided basic dimensions, I got the plug components which came with the Trig units assembled into 2 looms, by a 'pro'. However, having seen the results, I remain to be convinced. Firstly, the new cable is what I'd normally associate with domestic doorbells, but hey, it must be good: it's expensive! I was a bit dismayed to see the individual cables were not in any way gathered or tied to provide mutual support, but in fairness, the branch points for the loose ends were unknown to the guy who did it. I've therefore applied Maplin's finest pvc spiral wrap, to afford some protection:

11954


Mindful of the cheery note in the Trig Transponder installation manual: "WARNING: Reversing the power and ground inputs to this transponder will destroy it. Check wiring before applying power.[my note: OH DEEEEEP JOY!]", I thought I'd check the logic and continuity of the looms, hoping that in the process, I'd better understand them. NOT SO: I'm now even MORE confused. It's a bl**dy nightmare: so far, I've established the following, but it's far from finished, & even then, I'll need to treble check it:


11953

The diamonds represent the labelled ends of the cables for appropriate connection to the aircraft services. However, I'm far from clear on what those are, at the moment, particularly the lethal power connections, which threaten me with financial Armageddon, if/when I get them wrong. Additionally, the cables infer separate mic & headset connectors, which doesn't sound right at all.

Bob T
27-12-14, 15:13 PM
Come on Phil, there is less risk of reversing polarity than there is going out on your bike! There are only two choices of wiring it and it is pretty obvious.

Riggers
27-12-14, 15:20 PM
Come on Phil, there is less risk of reversing polarity .... and it is pretty obvious.

Not from where I'm looking, it bl**dy isn't!

Rick Moss
27-12-14, 16:38 PM
GA headsets do have different plugs for mic and speakers.... "Twin plug" you may call it :-)

woodysr2
27-12-14, 18:23 PM
The other thing Riggers is to do a continuity check on the cables to confirm poz and neg then there will be no frazzling going on LOL
the other thing to remember is that when wiring up the mic that you dont use the tip on the mic connector

Riggers
27-12-14, 22:16 PM
Well, er, thanks, Woody... just wish I understood your message, but I'm sure it's priceless!

Some basic questions, for anyone kind enough to comment:

i. Do I assume negative = earth = 'ground' = black?

ii. Red = positive?

iii. Why didn't Trig incorporate some simple protective diode stuff to prevent idiots like me from befalling self-induced disasters??

Aerial
28-12-14, 00:44 AM
Hmm. Y'know the old saying about assumptions about asses of u and me? Cables can be of any colour under the sun. Yes, there are conventions for red being pos and black or green being neg or earth return but......
As Woody says, just consult the electric map and get your multimeter going from one line end to end then move to the next line, ticking them off as you go. There are only a few cables that to to 2 places at once, for instance the Power+ and the intercom connections. Go from one end to the common connection then out to the remotest ends. If you have continuity as per the electric map, then do a continuity test from the DC pos to the DC neg to make sure of no inadvertent short circuits. Beware of looking at pin numbers on your connectors at the faces versus the termination sides. Its easy to get pins on a connector mixed up. Pin 1 at one end of the connector (say RHS top), then turning the connector over it should be top LHS, if you see what I mean?

By the way, why would a GPS (right-hand side your electric map) require a connection to the TY91 Radio Controller? Just askin', like...........

woodysr2
28-12-14, 01:41 AM
It is really not that hard
get a multimeter set it for continuity test
check wiring diagram for trig unit find which wire is positive then trace it back
the microphone socket is a stereo socket which means three terminals but you only use two of them
the Earth ring and the second ring the tip terminal is not used unless you are using powered anr sets

Riggers
28-12-14, 08:09 AM
It is really not that hard...

I suppose it's not, IF you've got an aptitude for electrical work and/or a proven wiring diagram. I don't have the former, and the latter is mostly of my own devising, which is a bit scary. Each bit of kit or advice comes with its own wiring schema, and a set of terminology often close to, but not quite, the same as others. From my point of ignorance, the differences may or may not be significant, but I don't KNOW. Integrating multiple bits of kit into a coherent whole is therefore not straightforward, at least to me.

Aerial: The connection between the GPS and the TY91 Radio Controller permits automated pre-loading of airfield radio frequencies to the radio by the Garmin 496 GPS [I hope!]. There are 2 different ways of connecting them, apparently, and my loom expert was only aware of one, so I'm not the only one with a less than perfect understanding.

I find the need to constantly reinvent wheels which were perfected years ago particularly frustrating. [As an aside, I could bore you to tears on the topic of 'Pi', which I once had to figure out, 'from scratch', since nobody had ever bothered to explain it, other than that it had a notional value of 3.1416... Yes, know, I'm a SAD git! <cross with myself>]. Life comprises a succession of approximations, but unfortunately, it's the detail which will eventually kill you.

Sorry to express my frustrations here, but working in a silo, I appreciate the chance to bounce ideas off others.

Aerial
28-12-14, 11:25 AM
Ah, that makes sense, thanks. I had expected to see a feed from the terminal GPS on the RHS to the transponder. You might still be able to add that to transponder pin 5 just by paralleling the wires from GPS terminal and without some additional circuitry to isolate the 2 trig units from each other and to prevent loading of the GPS terminal.

woodysr2
28-12-14, 12:48 PM
Hi riggers
believe me I am no expert in this field I had to google the wiring diagrams of both the radio and headsets then sat down and soldered the wiring to the connector then did a continuity test to confirm wire no's and ensure no shorting between other wires (I am **** at soldering) then checked everything another 3 times before wiring to the plane
you are absolutely right to be cautious I am certain if I was spending that much cash I would be doing the same why can't they standardise plugs as they have done with ISO plugs

Riggers
28-12-14, 16:48 PM
.....You might still be able to add that to transponder pin 5 just by paralleling the wires from GPS terminal and without some additional circuitry to isolate the 2 trig units from each other and to prevent loading of the GPS terminal.

Thanks again, Aerial.

There is mention in some quarters, including Trig, of a potential, if limited ADSB capability possible by integrating my Garmin 496 with the Trig (transponder?). I know nothing of ADSB, but understand it might improve my visibility to other traffic, particularly the fast UK & US military traffic prevalent in my area. If true, I'd be very interested in achieving that capability.

My immediate task is to complete documenting the looms in the diagram above, then get it validated by someone who understands this stuff. That done, I can then create a full aircraft wiring diagram around it, as a baseline for the aircraft build.

Woody: While I don't really understand the detail within your response, it's probably beyond me at the moment anyway, so don't worry about it, - but thanks anyway!

Ho-hum...

woodysr2
28-12-14, 18:37 PM
Hi Phil I am intending to purchase a transponder in the next week or two(local airspace changed to transponder mandatory) and the trig was my preferred choice I am using a Microair radio so don't know ifI will be much help from the point of combining the units although if memory serves there were two data cables on the dsub connector so might be able to combine the units looking at your diagram there are two earths (black) and one positive the red wire for the transponder I will have a look on the net to confirm this as I will be fitting the same unit so I will need to get a shopping list together although I am sure that LX were selling the trig with a loom included so might go for that to save hassle.
If you would like a simpler explanation please PM me your tel. no. and I will run you verbally through the testing meanwhile will trawl through google to upload wiring to confirm that both black are just common earth cables.
I could get a friend to look at your diagram if you like he is an auto spark and has just finished a panel refit on his rans which included a trig 21 transponder

Riggers
29-12-14, 07:02 AM
Thanks, yet again, Woody.

I'm grateful for anything which might provide clues: it's currently a 2,000 piece jigsaw, for which I only have fragments of the completed picture.

11955

ratty
29-12-14, 10:54 AM
Thanks, yet again, Woody.

I'm grateful for anything which might provide clues: it's currently a 2,000 piece jigsaw, for which I only have fragments of the completed picture.

11955

I think it would be a shame if folks are put off from building a SkyRanger after having read about this tortuous build. Most people who are reasonably competent (that is all the skill which is actually required) can poiish off a SkyRanger kit within a few months, or less, especially if building at home. They certainly don't need to make half a dozen panels.

The aircraft is delightfully straightforward and there is good support from Paul Dewhirst and his colleagues at FlyLight. I marvel at their patience in fact.

Ratty

Riggers
29-12-14, 11:52 AM
Well, that's an 'interesting perspective', Rick.

I don't recall blaming the kit, or Paul's excellent service, at any point, for my 'tortuous build'.

Sorry if it's caused you any distress....

Bob T
29-12-14, 12:04 PM
I don't think that anyone would be put off buy these posts as Phil has claimed that any problems are down to his two left hands!
That is rubbish though because I know Phil from when we worked together. The truth is that Phil is a perfectionist in things technical, and with a similar background to me, will be enjoying the build as much as anything else.

ratty
29-12-14, 13:03 PM
I don't think that anyone would be put off buy these posts as Phil has claimed that any problems are down to his two left hands!
That is rubbish though because I know Phil from when we worked together. The truth is that Phil is a perfectionist in things technical, and with a similar background to me, will be enjoying the build as much as anything else.

I don't understand then why someone should pretend that it's all so complicated and difficult when plainly it isn't. All I am saying is that this can have the effect of putting people off if they don't have the inside knowledge about the builder which you plainly do have. Perhaps this is a joke and I'm missing the point of it.

If he is a perfectionist then he is bound to be disappointed with building a SkyRanger. It is a very competent aircraft, and a delight to fly, but the inherent economy of the design and materials means that perfection is unlikely to be achieved, no matter how much effort is put into it.

Ratty

Riggers
29-12-14, 14:21 PM
Chaps, [not gender-specific!]

I've obviously reached a point here where I'm exhausting patience: for that I sincerely apologise: as I said earlier, working alone in my Norfolk silo, it's been nice to bounce cerebral ramblings off others. However, I would never want to cause discord, or in any way put anyone off buying and building a SKR, which is an outstanding aircraft for the price and supported with distinction by Paul D and his team at Flylight.

Rick: this is my second SKR, so I'm well aware of the machine's aesthetic limitations. In my view, you miss out one key element: the quality of the build. Sure, you can throw one together to make a functional flying machine in 'no time flat', but it won't be at all pleasing to the informed eye. Some folk, (like Chris, the b....!) can build them quickly, still with impressive quality. Sadly, I can't achieve that, but from some earlier experience, I DO know what I'm looking at in the finished product: At times I envy those who are more easily satisfied.

Anyway, enough! - thanks for use of the forums, Vince, and all the best to everyone in the future.....

Riggers

goldrush
29-12-14, 17:25 PM
Don't see why you have exhausted the patience of the Forum.
Please let us all remember that, as I have found throughout my life,(to paraphrase) "What obviously is not complicated and difficult" to one person is so trivial as to be of no consequence whatsoever to another.

From my own perspective, I am full of admiration of those who strive for near perfection and am extremely envious of their final products.

woodysr2
29-12-14, 21:45 PM
Phil
Give yourself credit for actually doing the build there are a lot of people out there who would not be able to build the plane at all.
we are all wired differently and I would not put too much store by what Ratty/Rick has written I am sure there are a lot of things he finds really difficult
like managing to remain on fora under his own name to name but one.
I will pm you when I have heard back about your wiring issue
cheers
William

Paul Dewhurst
29-12-14, 22:46 PM
When you are getting into transponders,radios and GPS talking to each other and bespoke looms etc, then it is far removed from simple microlighting where we plug one end of a Intercom into a radio via a factory made plug and a simple pos and neg power feed in the other end - it really is traditional heavy duty avionics stuff, and of course that is a professional trade in itself.

There is no shame in farming out parts of the build. Elctrics / electronics are my weak point and I have no enthusiasm to learn it, so always get someone who understands to do complex stuff.

So if you are finding it frustrating, scary and annoying I would advise to do similar., and project manage rather than doing the fiddly bit yourself. If however you are enjoying the learning and challenge carry on and emerge form the other end wiser and satisfied with achieving it yourself. After all page one of the homebuild legislation say it's for the 'education and recreation' of the builder..

forums can be useful, but you do need an effective bullshit and mischief filter..

Paul

johnny3star
30-12-14, 11:39 AM
Hi Phil,
Don’t get disheartenedby any posts from notorious wind up merchant Rick ‘Ratty’ Goddin.
I enjoy readingabout G-TIDYs build progress, and we will be following in your footsteps nextyear.

Incidentally,I recently flew G-SIRE and thought what a good job you had made of the build.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HJhozUKiyAg/VKJ-vFnlPhI/AAAAAAAAFuc/ENy60W6Ldmc/s512/IMG_3018.JPG

Rick Moss
30-12-14, 13:03 PM
Back on track:
Any GPS with an NMEA0183 output (this includes a garmin 496 and pretty much everything except an iObject) can and (in my opinion) should be connected to your Trig transponder, which will then utilise the extended squitter function of the transponder and broadcast adsb information. Caveat: currently only approved gps's should be connected like this as per regs, however the safety benefit to all proves the law to be an ass in this instance, so sod 'em.

Doing this will make you show up on all PCAS and TCAS systems fitted to other aircraft (including mine) and any glider fitted with powerflarm etc.
Additionally suitably equipped atc units will be far better able to assist you and others with the additional info provided.

ratty
30-12-14, 13:09 PM
Hi Phil,
Don’t get disheartenedby any posts from notorious wind up merchant Rick ‘Ratty’ Goddin.
I enjoy readingabout G-TIDYs build progress, and we will be following in your footsteps nextyear.

Incidentally,I recently flew G-SIRE and thought what a good job you had made of the build.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HJhozUKiyAg/VKJ-vFnlPhI/AAAAAAAAFuc/ENy60W6Ldmc/s512/IMG_3018.JPG

The only reason I posted in the first place was that someone had asked me about building a SkyRanger and I suggested that he looked on the various forums and groups. He then read the 140 or so posts on here and wondered whether this was a typical experience. He said that, if it was, he would be looking to buy in the second hand market rather than build one himself. There's really no more to it than that.

I admire attention to detail but not to a point where it frightens possible new entrants.

Ratty

johnny3star
30-12-14, 14:55 PM
Chaps, [not gender-specific!]

I've obviously reached a point here where I'm exhausting patience:
for that I sincerely apologise: as I said earlier, working alone in my Norfolk silo, it's been nice to bounce cerebral ramblings off others. However, I would never want to cause discord, or in any way put anyone off buying and building a SKR,
which is an outstanding aircraft for the price and supported with distinction by Paul D and his team at Flylight.
Riggers

I don’tthink you’re exhausting anyone’s patience,
I suspectmost readers on here (certainly including me) don’t really understand how thisstuff can be linked up?
I had neverheard of a NMEA 0183 port until today?
The wikidisclaimer seems to concur

NMEA 0183



This article may be too technical (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/technical#Adjective) for most readers to understand.
Please help improve (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NMEA_0183&action=edit) this article to make it understandable to non-experts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Make_technical_articles_understandable), without removing the technical details. The talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:NMEA_0183) may contain suggestions. (December 2011)




My enquiriesinto advice about modern EFIS units on here also had rather limited success.

Perhaps for specificadvice on linking these units up, you could try asking on the Flyer, BMAA, orLAA forums?

johnny3star
31-12-14, 11:43 AM
Ifully concur with Phil’s confusion regarding this stuff.
We’vebeen considering a Skyview EFIS/EMS system,
justtrying to work out what other units you need to configure it all is complicatedenough!



https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1s7_sfFVMNY/VKPR2a0R4pI/AAAAAAAAFvs/sRxfmS4fbgs/s512/Dynon%2520skyview%2520seperates.jpg

Riggers
31-12-14, 13:41 PM
Chaps, (caveat as before),

Thanks for the kind words, since my last entry.

I had intended for that to be my last on the site, but with the benefit of thinking time, , I find Rick's suggestion that my thoughts should be in some way be censored, for fear they frighten the horses, quite preposterous. In short, I don't agree and I won't accept it. I therefore intend to continue, unless and until Vince tells me otherwise, since it certainly benefits me and I hope at least one or two others. I don't believe I've ever said anything offensive to any individual in my written ramblings, which are, like everyone else's merely personal OPINION.

I may be 'wacky of Norfolk', but to me, it's not just some straightforward task, or procedure to be followed, it's more an expression of sheer delight in engineering as an art form, (although I'm lousy at it). I will therefore progress G-TIDY to MY personal taste & satisfaction, and vent my frustrations and delights here, so long as the consensus allows. If anyone doesn't like what I write, then simply don't read it! I'm sure there's an 'ignore' button somewhere. In return for burdening unlucky readers, I'm grateful for feedback or corrections where I'm going astray: I'm often wrong and have benefitted from feedback here in the past.

Rick: if your queue of potential SKR builders are as easily-swayed as you imply, why don't you write your build experiences in a parallel thread, here, to show them how it [I]should be done, maybe in a back bedroom, in just over a long weekend?

I mean no personal offence in writing this, but feel my opinion's as justified as the next chap's...

Paul Dewhurst
31-12-14, 19:56 PM
Chaps, (caveat as before),

Thanks for the kind words, since my last entry.

I had intended for that to be my last on the site, but with the benefit of thinking time, , I find Rick's suggestion that my thoughts should be in some way be censored, for fear they frighten the horses, quite preposterous. In short, I don't agree and I won't accept it. I therefore intend to continue, unless and until Vince tells me otherwise, since it certainly benefits me and I hope at least one or two others. I don't believe I've ever said anything offensive to any individual in my written ramblings, which are, like everyone else's merely personal OPINION.

I may be 'wacky of Norfolk', but to me, it's not just some straightforward task, or procedure to be followed, it's more an expression of sheer delight in engineering as an art form, (although I'm lousy at it). I will therefore progress G-TIDY to MY personal taste & satisfaction, and vent my frustrations and delights here, so long as the consensus allows. If anyone doesn't like what I write, then simply don't read it! I'm sure there's an 'ignore' button somewhere. In return for burdening unlucky readers, I'm grateful for feedback or corrections where I'm going astray: I'm often wrong and have benefitted from feedback here in the past.

Rick: if your queue of potential SKR builders are as easily-swayed as you imply, why don't you write your build experiences in a parallel thread, here, to show them how it [I]should be done, maybe in a back bedroom, in just over a long weekend?

I mean no personal offence in writing this, but feel my opinion's as justified as the next chap's...

I am sure the Skyranger / Nynja reputation will survive - 1800 world wide and 250 UKbuilders have successfully been through the project, and it outnumbers any other Homebuilt microlight type in the UK by a large margin - primarily because it is good value and very simple to build. And simple to maintain and repair afterwards. It can't be too bad we have some owners who have built the original Skyranger, come back for a Swift, and then come back again and built a Nynja. And they aren't a type that spends ages in build or get given up on. It must have one of the highest ratios for sold vs finished.

And if you choose to fit complex avionics then, that's a complex job - regardless of what airframe type you are putting them in - that makes no difference at all. And we shouldn't forget that we are fitting avionics in microlights these days that exceed the capabilities of multi million pound state of the art military planes just a decade or two back.

Options for those that don't like the sound of that and don't want to do it themselves, are to hire a professional to do that aspect ( which many builders do and is perfectly fine under the rules) or keep it simple. So down completely to personal choice, and shouldn't in any way be a passion killer for potential homebuilders.


Paul

CT Aviation
31-12-14, 20:30 PM
I disagree, the Nynja is exceptionally complex and difficult to build and can take tens of years to complete, the panel and wiring is at least a whole years work and the UK importers offer little support ( I may be getting confused with another importer !)
on a serious note, a kit of any sort takes as long as it takes, each builder has their own pace, time available and levels of finish they wish to achieve. As Phil points out my own Nynja was thrown together over a lunch break, well six weeks, but this was a all pre planned with everything to hand ( and a little bit of plane building experience ), this produced an aircraft were well pleased with exactly on the budget we'd set and I think it looks pretty good too.
im looking forward to the fly in for the roll out of phils Nynja

chris

Paul Dewhurst
31-12-14, 21:08 PM
I disagree, the Nynja is exceptionally complex and difficult to build and can take tens of years to complete, the panel and wiring is at least a whole years work and the UK importers offer little support ( I may be getting confused with another importer !)
on a serious note, a kit of any sort takes as long as it takes, each builder has their own pace, time available and levels of finish they wish to achieve. As Phil points out my own Nynja was thrown together over a lunch break, well six weeks, but this was a all pre planned with everything to hand ( and a little bit of plane building experience ), this produced an aircraft were well pleased with exactly on the budget we'd set and I think it looks pretty good too.
im looking forward to the fly in for the roll out of phils Nynja

chris

you don't count - you are one of those professionals that I would recommend to do panel work for builders!

i spent a fair bit of time building a Shadow back in the mid 90's ( my first whole aircaft project after years of maintenance and repairing). Folk ribbed me and called it the millennium Shadow becuase of its apparent slow progress. It was completed a little before then - but to my standard. Spent a lot of time preparing and executing the paintwork and boom and exposed tubes were all polished rather than having heavy paint slapped on them, and lots of little details that most folk wouldn't have noticed were fettled to be smooth, square and just right. It gave me a big sense of satisfaction when completed and looking good.

We are having a Flylight 20th birthday party fly in and party on the 25/26th July ( publicity launch soon). With a special invite for Skyranger / Nynja/ Dragonfly/ Doodlebugs and Aircreation machines we have sold / made ( as well as all others welcome) would be great to see Phil and Nynja there - I may even have a special concours panel award for encouragement.. ( although I dread to think about his sanity if he didn't win!)

We could even get one of those inflatable boxing rings and huge comedy gloves and invite Rick to be resident in it for the weekend - that might guarantee a record turn out!

Paul

ratty
31-12-14, 21:31 PM
..............snipped.....

We could even get one of those inflatable boxing rings and huge comedy gloves and invite Rick to be resident in it for the weekend - that might guarantee a record turn out!

Paul

Great idea - I have some old scores to settle with him

Ratty

CT Aviation
31-12-14, 21:54 PM
[QUOTE=Paul Dewhurst;103783]you don't count -

See what I mean about the importers !

are ex employees allowed at this 20th anniversary ( can't believe it is that long since we were in those porta cabins with an extension lead from the hotel)

Riggers
31-12-14, 22:54 PM
.....the Nynja is exceptionally complex and difficult to build and can take tens of years to complete, the panel and wiring is at least a whole years work....

You see? Even the experts now admit it: at last, I've been vindicated!

I knew I was right all along, but, as usual, nobody listens to me...

Riggers
31-12-14, 22:58 PM
[QUOTE=ratty;103785]Great idea - I have some old scores to settle with him

Ratty[/QUOTE

Anyone know whom?

Riggers
21-04-15, 08:46 AM
Just dabbling with another panel, for a pal. This one's to include an iPad mini, a Trig transponder & an MGL unit. The initial design's showing promise:

12197

bryannortje
21-04-15, 14:01 PM
Oh dear here we go.... LOL :helpsign:

Riggers
29-04-15, 08:03 AM
Oh dear here we go.... LOL :helpsign:

Whadya mean????? :-o

Version 1 is now installed & looks quite sexy. Maybe the owner/builder might be prevailed upon to show us a picture....?

adficio
29-04-15, 10:58 AM
Kept seeing the name Bryan Nortje on posts & kept thinking " I know that name "

Now I have put the name to where I know you from, I am guessing your salary " gave you wings "

bryannortje
29-04-15, 16:00 PM
Sure did :smiley-vault-misc-1

MikeS
30-04-15, 10:06 AM
Hi if any help this is the panel layout that I have settled on. Re switches and fuses I finished uo geting the combined switch circuit breakers and look greta and reduse the layout about fuse / CB positioning.

I'm chasing the best position for the static ports in the fuse area, let me know if you know about the prefered position on nynjas.

CT Aviation
30-04-15, 10:16 AM
Nynja uses cockpit static which seems to work ok

Riggers
30-04-15, 10:19 AM
Hi if any help this is the panel layout that I have settled on....

Hi, Mike.

Do you have a picture you can attach?

MikeS
30-04-15, 11:19 AM
Image of panel.

Paul Dewhurst
30-04-15, 12:13 PM
Doesnt look UK spec throttle - what country are you in Mike?

Paul

MikeS
30-04-15, 12:13 PM
Hi Riggers

This is the image I meant to attach before.

Cheers
Mike

MikeS
30-04-15, 12:18 PM
Hi Paul

In Australia.

What do you find is the best location for static ports?

Regards
Mike

Riggers
30-04-15, 12:28 PM
Thanks, Mike: nice.

I see you've achieved what I couldn't: getting the Trig profiles right!

- They were the last two holes I cut in my carbon panel, & the delamination I experienced/ caused drove me to laser-cutting an alooominum panel.

MikeS
30-04-15, 13:41 PM
Hi Riggers

Attached are some images of cutting the panel. The small holes were done with a hole saw cutting carefully with light pressure, centre hole dilled first then align centre drill of hole saw with alignment timber in drill stand vice and clamp down with soft clamps. The large hole saw was not due into the shop for a while so I did those and trig holes with a jigsaw. The jig saw has plastic tape on its base to prevent damage to the carbon panel face and the blade is a emery type blade, its not a saw tooth type blade. These are ideal for this type of cutting. Inthe image of the jigsaw cut if you look close you will see there is no splintering at the edges of the cut. Hope these are of assistance to yourself and others.

Cheers
Mike Building in Mackay Queensland Australia.

Riggers
30-04-15, 14:04 PM
Mike: clever stuff!

I'm not familiar with the 'emery blade' idea you mention. I'd cut the Trig holes with a fretsaw, then was trying to use a watchmakers file to get sharp edges, where the round bits of the profile meets the flats. The result was the delamination, and to me it looked bl**dy AWFUL. ��

I'm SOOOOO glad I'm past all that, now!

Paul Dewhurst
30-04-15, 20:08 PM
With composite you have to file/ sand along the edge not across it. We have done a few Nynja panels and no chipped and frayed edges. Nothing fancy just Dremel and sandpaper and needle file.

Paul

Riggers
30-04-15, 21:34 PM
Thanks, Paul, probably very useful info, but I won't be working with composites again - the material never did appeal, and it had some bad characteristics when first introduced into the RAF aircraft some years ago. Fortunately for me, I think it looks improvised, even if done properly, so my panel screw-up turned out to be good news for me. Each to their own, I suppose!

MikeS
01-05-15, 07:41 AM
Hi Paul and Riggers

I used needle files for finishing any corners. The Bosch brand jigsaw blade is a 'T130'. Also in the images with the blade and a new one in packet is a piece of carbon panel to show the edge clean cut. The other image is scribing the cut line useing an instrument mount guide insert , and image of starting the cut inside the scribe line and move out to the cut line and a fully cut out piece.


Also Paul I'm keen to hear about any advice of the static port locations that you recommend.

Regards
Mike

Riggers
01-05-15, 22:15 PM
Thanks, Mike - I'll research the T130 Bosch blade, but perhaps for other materials!

Are you flying it now?

MikeS
01-05-15, 23:34 PM
Hi Riggers. I'm still building. Hope to be close to finished in 4 weeks. I've fiotted the two piece door arrangement and fabricating the lower door locking arrangement today. Have three days straight on the build this weekend and monday. I enjoy the build but now really looking forward to her her assembled with wings on at the hangar.

Re the 'T-130' you will find it a great tool. As well as cutting and because the emery compound wraps around the leading edge of the blade you can make tight turns in the cut if needed or gog wider or tighter on you cut eaiser that using a saw type blade; as it is abrading the material rather than cutting.

Cheers
Mike

MikeS
29-12-15, 12:06 PM
Hi Riggers

I have about 30 hours on the Nynja now; and totally happy with its feel and performance. I'm finishing off my navigation endorsement at present. Last Sunday did a 92 N/ml solo each way nav cross country between my home airfield at Marian and Bowen in Queensland.

I just watched your video flying with paul and enjoyed the movie and scenery. Attached are some images of my flight Sunday last. I have not fitted the spats as yet.

Cheers
Mike

Riggers
04-01-16, 09:23 AM
Hi Mike, & happy New Year.

Great to hear your progress - 30 hours is good, but I guess you don't have the 'benefit' of the UK climate. Here, we're enjoying the Norfolk 'wet'!

Glad you enjoyed my attempt at video: quite shambolic, really, but it was my first attempt, and I was only using my phone.

G-TIDY's a bit 'under-houred' as we speak: life here's taken on an unexpected medical focus at the moment, which I hope will be cleared by March, in time for a record long hot Summer...

Fly safe,

Phil

MikeS
04-01-16, 11:19 AM
Hi Phil

Our cylonic wet may occur any time in the next two months. (My view is usually last week of Feb or first week of March in my area; however as weather is any time things can occur.) I see on the news recently that you are getting plenty of rain. Enjoy your flying when March comes around.
Best wishes for 2016 and good safe flying.

Regards
Mike

Riggers
14-05-16, 18:33 PM
Well, I've had a year's experience with Panel version 6, and overall, it's been quite successful:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/7d8904af-bf40-466f-8b67-3989e38ae75a_zps6ikpybs0.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/7d8904af-bf40-466f-8b67-3989e38ae75a_zps6ikpybs0.jpg.html)

However, with the chance of more extended flying this year, I've found a couple of areas for improvement:

i. Although I fitted a dedicated 5v supply, derived from Mr Honda's motorcycle spares, I haven't managed to connect the iPad, due to a slight cable routing problem.

ii. I'd installed two power sockets in the dash, (upper left centre): one 5V USB, intended for phone charging, and one 12V DIN. Although both are connected, I haven't used either, since i. I've only done 'short' flights, where phone charging's been unnecessary, and ii. I don't have anything 12V to supply.

iii. I've been fearful of USB noise problems, and I've had enough to think about, with personal and aircraft, shakedown programmes to complete.

Anyway, both shakedowns are now complete, signified by satisfactory engine 25 hour and aircraft annual inspections, and last week, renewal of G-TIDY's permit. I've recently discovered this little beauty, designed to occupy a 57mm instrument slot:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/IMG_1039a_zpscyefv9ef.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/IMG_1039a_zpscyefv9ef.jpg.html)

It's designed & built in the UK, for aircraft use, and will provide a guaranteed noise-free USB 5V supply up to 2.4A for each port. This means I can use one to charge the iPad, running SkyDemon, and one to charge the iPhone, for trips away, eg Fly-UK.

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/IMG_1044a_zpsf8kxnlsb.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/IMG_1044a_zpsf8kxnlsb.jpg.html)

All we need, then, is to modify the panel: behold Version 7:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/Panel%20Verison%207_zpsogxan0om.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/Panel%20Verison%207_zpsogxan0om.jpg.html)

The red box shows the location for the new wunderbox; while I'm doing this, I've taken the opportunity to relocate the slip indicator into a more prominent, line-of-sight location, (since my instructor feels I need to, er, pay it more attention [cough]! :-( ). Furthermore, I've moved the switches, to resolve the cable routing problem, and added a couple more: not yet needed, but I can blank them, for use in the future. Additionally, the iPad feed cable is routed so that it can be unplugged from the power unit, to allow that socket to be used for anything else requiring a USB supply.

Having revised the CAD file, the new panel was laser-cut, and has since been powder-coated in the same grey as before; all I've got to do now is satisfy the BMAA Mod process and install it!

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/IMG_1027_zps2ykuvnsk.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/IMG_1027_zps2ykuvnsk.jpg.html)

ArthurG
14-05-16, 21:27 PM
Lovely work! When you eventually finish, that plane will be utterly perfect. ;-)

Riggers
14-05-16, 21:55 PM
...When you eventually finish....

Thanks, Arthur. I'm not sure it will ever be 'finished', nor would I want it to be; I enjoy improving it.

Mind you, there's quite exciting potential from the way the Nynja and SkyRangers are evolving, and some features might only be possible with a whole new build. I'm not sure these fora could stand it, but next time, I'd probably... [censored] :-)

Phil

Meanwhile, Panel version 8 is in my head, where an MGL Xtreme EFIS replaces all the engine instruments, rendering half of the diminutive Nynja panel redundant. I can't believe it's only 18 months since I was complaining the Nynja's panel was too small!!!!

Ladies & gentlemen, Panel 8, (provisional):http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/PHR%20G-TIDY%20Panel%20with%20iPad%20amp%20EFIS%20Ver%207h_zpsimf6vxmt.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/PHR%20G-TIDY%20Panel%20with%20iPad%20amp%20EFIS%20Ver%207h_zpsimf6vxmt.jpg.html)

Riggers
13-06-16, 18:34 PM
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/IMG_1230a_zpsyjaj8k1l.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/IMG_1230a_zpsyjaj8k1l.jpg.html)

....Panel 7 now installed!

The new USB power supply happily charges the iPad and my iPhone concurrently, with no noise evident through the headsets.

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/q606/GetOrfMyLand/IMG_1216a_zps5uesexed.jpg (http://s1166.photobucket.com/user/GetOrfMyLand/media/IMG_1216a_zps5uesexed.jpg.html)