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Thread: MTOW 600kg ?

  1. #11
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    Hi Joan, I don't think that that's fundamentally the problem. At the heart of it is that manufacturers have been manufacturing and selling ultralight/microlight aircraft for 20 years or so that have not strictly conformed to the microlight definition eg take something like a Citius - empty plus 2 on board brings you up to around 450kg before adding fuel, and anyone wanting to buy a new aircraft over that period has therefore had little choice but to buy them. There have been incentives on both sides - manufacturers have seen opportunities in offering heavier, more capable aircraft to attract owners wanting to move away from expensive group A to cheap(er) ultralights but still wanting to cover long distances with a useful payload and have stretched what was really possible within the current definition. And owners have wanted to buy the biggest, most attractive and most resellable bangs for their bucks.

    It's only in the UK that this has been prevented eg you can only buy a Savannah with a naff Jabiru engine whereas the whole of the rest of the world runs them with 80 and 100 hp Rotaxes. And look where that policy has got the UK in relation to say, the rest of Europe. The UK market is dead on its feet whereas elsewhere light sport aviation is still, relatively speaking, booming.

    I think that the change of direction that has been signalled in the UK is now too little too late - the horse has bolted. There are now no viable volume UK manufacturers of the type of aircrfat that we're now envisaging ie of the type that the market wants to buy, not what the authorities want to let people buy, and much like the way UK motorcycles went, if the UK market was now liberalised it would be swamped by already available foreign products and UK manufacturers would have no chance getting established.

    We never learn.

    Obviously the problem of blatantly flying illegally overweight is something different. You could argue that pilots in Europe have been doing it for 20 years but as I suggest above, they would say that they've had no choice. So why should they be made to suffer eg in the way that the CT pilot was in Scotland(?) a few years ago who suffered a landing accident (went into a ditch?) and the insurance said they would not pay out because even thougn it wasn't overweight at the time, it didn't conform strictly to the microlight definition and was when it took off (the details may not be exact but I think are basically correct). Unforgiveable in my book


  2. #12
    Captain Paul Dewhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadamBreakneck View Post
    ... and nobody will fly 600kg 'microlights' overweight? Oh no, that would never happen...

    and thatís why any regulation change must incorporate a practical minimum payload rule. The Czechs have gone for 250Kg payload for 600kg MTOW. That allows for two 100kg people and 50 kg of fuel / baggage. That should result in 95% of flights being legal - as opposed to 95% being overweight as we have now.

    the BMAA discussion paper to CAA stated (in bold!) that this was Essential for any change.

    paul

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  4. #13
    Captain MadamBreakneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dewhurst View Post
    ...hat should result in 95% of flights being legal - as opposed to 95% being overweight as we have now...
    That is sad. I do hope it is a rhetorical 95%.


    Back to just bimbling


  5. #14
    Captain Paul Dewhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadamBreakneck View Post
    That is sad. I do hope it is a rhetorical 95%.
    Go to any fly in and see where people have come from and how big they look and what they have in the plane do the math..

    mind you do do the same for any four seater with 3 persons or more and you will discover itís not unusual..,


  6. #15
    Captain MadamBreakneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dewhurst View Post
    Go to any fly in and see where people have come from and how big they look ... snip ...
    So you do reckon that 95% of microlight flights are overweight?
    That is sad

    Am I really in a tiny minority in staying within my aircraft's certified weight limits?
    Somebody tell me I'm not, please!


  7. #16
    Airfield Ops thebarb's Avatar
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    Joan,
    You are in a minority, very few microlight flights are made within the aircraft's certified weight limits in a fully compliant weight range. It is sad but true, so the solution is not necessarily the cure.
    If those who are knowingly exceeding the 390 or 450kg did so at those weights, they will also do so at the revised weights.
    By raising the MTOW there is a chance that those who do exceed MTOW's will exceed it by a lower percentage in the future, but only time will tell.
    Quote Originally Posted by MadamBreakneck View Post
    So you do reckon that 95% of microlight flights are overweight?
    That is sad

    Am I really in a tiny minority in staying within my aircraft's certified weight limits?
    Somebody tell me I'm not, please!
    Con Donnelly
    Trout Lake Fisherman


  8. #17
    Co-Pilot Keveng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebarb View Post
    Joan,
    You are in a minority, very few microlight flights are made within the aircraft's certified weight limits in a fully compliant weight range. It is sad but true, so the solution is not necessarily the cure.
    If those who are knowingly exceeding the 390 or 450kg did so at those weights, they will also do so at the revised weights.
    By raising the MTOW there is a chance that those who do exceed MTOW's will exceed it by a lower percentage in the future, but only time will tell.
    Pedant mode on , the MTOW raise is for the class of aircraft, if you have a 390 , 409 or 450 kg MTOW it will be exactly the same until the manufacturer ups the Tads or Hads for that particular aircraft. so my Quantum will never be more than 409 kg , Im pretty sure the only guys who will benefit from this are the newer Hyperships and modern 3 axis machines. Ps Joan im with you i dont believe i have ever taken off at more than 400 Kg MTOW except for the check flight.
    Keven
    Quantum 15 , 582
    G- MYTI


  9. #18
    Co-Pilot Antoni's Avatar
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    Some microlights are artificially weight-limited to fit under the microlight regs - yes we all know that - but if as a microlighter you occasionally get 'close' to the limit it is necessary to remember that you are no longer flying your old friend; you are flying a faster GA machine which must fly fast. I didn't remember. It's the 'occasionally' that may bite you.
    "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - G.B.S.


  10. #19
    Airfield Ops thebarb's Avatar
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    The " Turning a blind eye " to operating overweight has been around for many a year, now it seems that to safeguard the vested interests of the training organisations they have to campaign for a higher MTOW allowance.

    If you take the average training microlight as having an empty weight of 268kg I think a ballpark figure of 86kg for the average sized flying instructor is normal, most microlight students are 86kg + ( let's stick to 86kg a person ) which then puts any average training microlight at 440kg before fuel is added.

    10kg gives 13.88 litres so any 1hr lesson will be fuel 'critical' if remaining fully legal on MTOW, so we all know that most flying school aircraft USUALLY have 30litres or more onboard.
    I would hazard a guess that most training flights are operating at least 11.6kg overweight on take off ( emphasis on at least, quite a few students are heavier than 86kg & very few instructors are under 86kg ). These figures could be further increased above MTOW if more than 30 litres is being carried

    It would be very easy to say they should 'Lead by example' but even the hierachy of the BMAA Management (past & present) have openly flaunted that they have flown microlights over their MTOW.....You only need eyes to see this at most training schools & more so at Fly In's.

    The increase in MTOW is the theoretical 'Band Aid' to heal a very open wound, though I think this wound will never be healed properly.
    Con Donnelly
    Trout Lake Fisherman


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