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  1. #1
    Co-Pilot Antoni's Avatar
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    Fancy being an Uber pilot?

    At a loose end back in blighty so was listening to that butt of many jokes "You and Yours" on R4 today. At abt 0:20 in

    Wingley

    SkyUber

    were covered. The second one gives you the idea. The legalities were covered accurately to the best of my knowledge. That the 'sample punter' used the phrase '100 Hrs on type' suggests he was a licenced pilot.

    The report said 1000 pilots had registered and 400 Wingley paid flights have been made... A quick google search shows a well set-up web site with much higher numbers indicated. Never knew of its existence until the dreaded beeb (Brussels broadcasting corporation) told me. Brilliant!

    What 2-seater shall I go for?
    Last edited by Antoni; 30-06-17 at 15:54 PM. Reason: Excellent quote from R4's Today included
    "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - G.B.S.


  2. #2
    Co-Pilot jetlag's Avatar
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    F-JRIB LF1751 Corme Ecluse

    Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

    Phil.


  3. #3
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    Good idea but looks a bit dodgy to me.

    From the Wingly web site, day trip for two, Denham-Bembridge, Cessna 172.

    Cost 1 passenger £135, 2 passengers £270

    That doesn't look much like flight sharing to me

    BTW, in the 'promo' bit it says '£68 per way', which I'd have thought would be a lot closer


  4. #4
    Co-Pilot Peter Twissell's Avatar
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    Surely if it's 'sharing' the total cost for 2 passengers would be 50% more than for one, assuming the cost is divided equally by all occupants including the pilot.
    Can I pay with these 9 bob notes?
    G-BZNP Still not dead


  5. #5
    Trainee Pilot Keith Nelson's Avatar
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    Just been talking with a microlight pilot who I am considering buying into his microlight.
    He was telling me that he offsets the cost of his flying by charging his passenger for the flight, I am just checking whether this is still legal as I don't want to get embroiled in something where I am sharing a microlight with someone operating outside of what is acceptable.

    He is saying that because he charges his passengers the full amount of what the flight would have been costing him that he is getting everything covered by his passenger.

    Reading the guidance notes I am not certain that he is allowed to do this? I did read that the pilot has to have made a contribution, does he have to contributed in an equal amount or can he pay a lower percentage and still be legal?

    On the basis that the guidance notes say contributions can be made towards fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft would I be right in thinking that as he rents the airfield from a friendly farmer he can charge a percentage of the annual airfield rent against the flight? is he also allowed to charge the full cost of the fuel used during the flight to the passenger? In terms of being the owner of the microlight is he allowed to charge a rental fee for the aircraft to his passenger?

    I am asking because the amount he says he gets for a jolly with a passenger is a lot more than he is telling me that I would need to put into the kitty for every hour I would fly myself.

    I am being told I would be expected to pay 50% of the insurance, 50% of the airfield rent & a set charge per flying hour I fly. I find this all acceptable but am worried about the ramifications of him charging passengers the total amount of his flying for the enjoyment it gives them.
    Keith Nelson
    ( Actively looking for a microlight to buy ).

    I stayed up all night to see where the sun went, and then it dawned on me.


  6. #6
    Co-Pilot jetlag's Avatar
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    Could it not be said that the pilots share is the costs such as machine purchase, maintainance, insurance. I don't know, just putting forward the suggestion
    F-JRIB LF1751 Corme Ecluse

    Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

    Phil.


  7. #7
    Trainee Pilot PilotPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoni View Post
    The report said 1000 pilots had registered and 400 Wingley paid flights have been made... A quick google search shows a well set-up web site with much higher numbers indicated. Never knew of its existence until the dreaded beeb (Brussels broadcasting corporation) told me. Brilliant!
    there was a very well written article in the May edition of Pilot on this subject and praised the situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Twissell View Post
    assuming the cost is divided equally by all occupants including the pilot.
    based on the assumption maybe, but as indicated by Jetlag, there are other costs than the individual flight and how a pilot can claim is "contributing". as i understand the rules the Pilot cannot take more than the cost of the flight, so £20 of fuel and £10 landing fee, the most is £30 a pilot can receive - £31 is no longer legal as a "profit" is being made.
    how that £30 is split is up to the pilot, a flat £30 for the flight, ie £30 for one passenger, £15 for two - its an individual case.

    it maybe that pilots choose not to sail too close to the wind and only charge 50% of the flight costs, so one passenger maybe £15 and for two £25 thus ensuring no one passenger is paying more than 50% for example



    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Nelson View Post
    Just been talking with a microlight pilot who I am considering buying into his microlight.
    He was telling me that he offsets the cost of his flying by charging his passenger for the flight, I am just checking whether this is still legal as I don't want to get embroiled in something where I am sharing a microlight with someone operating outside of what is acceptable.
    I do exactly the same.
    however i maintain a 50% price

    I have a set of FAQs about microlights, my licence and the flight capabilities which I get bored answering.

    How many hours do you need to do?
    How far can you travel?
    Does it cost a lot?
    Do you have to do lots of tests to stay valid….etc

    When I got my licence lots of people wanted to go flying and started offering me money for the chance in the belief that flying is expensive.
    Not wanting to fall foul of the law I included costs into the FAQs briefing sheet to highlight what it actually costs.

    In briefing I include the line “nothing in aviation comes cheap, although microlight flying is more affordable than most forms of powered flight.”

    I indicate that fuel burn is ~12-15litres/hour and so burn ~£20/hour at the current price of fuel. As most flights with a passenger include a few circuits, buzzing over their house, stalls, steep turns and the like fuel burn is typically closer to 15l/hr and at £1.30/litre that’s £19.50 worth of unleaded – round it up for nice figures I call it £20.
    (as I have a 582, this is not unrealistic when taking into account the 2-stroke oil).

    I indicate that I cannot make a profit and only a contribution, be that 1% or 99% but not 101% and for ease only consider the fuel for the cost of a flight and as such suggest £10/hour. This is a nice figure to work with, 99% of my (local) passenger flights are an hour as any less goes too quick. It is an easy figure to have “to hand” and doesn’t require finding change because its £8.56. it is also seen as good value knowing experience flights at at least 6x the price for half the time!

    Some friends I have “flown out” to an airfield of interest and had lunch. This is often 2-3 hours flight time, a £10 landing fee and at least £10 for lunch. In these cases we share the costs, one perhaps pays for the aircraft while the other picks up the charges on the airfield…

    One passenger who doesn’t offer any contribution is my wife – so is one con when taking her out for an airfield lunch or “£30 cup of coffee” I pay the lot!


  8. #8
    Trainee Pilot zombeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Nelson View Post
    On the basis that the guidance notes say contributions can be made towards fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft would I be right in thinking that as he rents the airfield from a friendly farmer he can charge a percentage of the annual airfield rent against the flight? is he also allowed to charge the full cost of the fuel used during the flight to the passenger? In terms of being the owner of the microlight is he allowed to charge a rental fee for the aircraft to his passenger?
    Assuming this is a g reg aircraft on an NPPL.
    You're allowed to accept contributions towards the direct cost of the flight.
    Fuel is a direct cost, landing fees are, whatever you've agreed to pay into the aircraft maintenance fund per hour of flying it is a direct cost.

    Insurance isn't, airfield rent isn't and nor are any other annual costs you'd be paying if it was sat in the hangar and you were in the pub.

    Typically I charge my passengers nothing at all if I asked them if they wanted to come flying (if it's to somewhere they usually buy the food), whatever proportion of the fuel comes out at a round number if they asked me to take them up somewhen or "no, here's the number of an instructor or CPL if you want to pay someone" if they offer to pay me to take them flying.

    If you charge them more than it costs you then you are not cost sharing, you are operating a commercial flight (see the Air Navigation Order for a list of offences you'd be committing)
    Whether there are any actual ramifications depends on whether you get caught. As far as I can see that usually happens when someone crashes and the AAIB start asking awkward questions.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to zombeh For This Useful Post:

    PilotPete (24-07-19)


  10. #9
    Trainee Pilot PilotPete's Avatar
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    20171116_092439.jpg

    This is now 18 months past but this is an article i have from Pilot Dec17 - which summaries "as long as something i paid you're kosher"


  11. #10
    Trainee Pilot PilotPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PilotPete View Post
    there was a very well written article in the May edition of Pilot on this subject and praised the situation
    That article is now available online

    https://www.pilotweb.aero/news/caa-f...newsletterlink


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