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  1. #11
    Captain woodysr2's Avatar
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    following on from Rogers post there are a good many aircraft flying with a 450kg limit in the UK( microlight) that are actually flying with the 500 or 600 limit elsewhere in the world the hawk being one example 600kg in Australia the same machine.
    there is even a guy in South Australia flying with a 912s fitted giving a climb rate of over 1500fpm not allowed here go figure.
    Autogyros, the MTO range are rated at different weights depending where you are in europe it is total nonsense and needs resolved
    fly high fly safe and may you always have the wind at your back
    (except when taking off or landing according to Phil )


  2. #12
    F-UK FLYER
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    No, but out there in the real world there is a 'new breed' of microlight that has failed to see the light of day in the UK.
    Roger, Most of the UK Microlighting fraternity haven't a clue how many other types of microlight are available outside of the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    Take my Savannah 912S, manufactured, registered and used in France, elsewhere in Europe and in other parts of the world for not far short of 20 years. You can't have a 912S Savannah in the UK because of the arcane rules relating to empty weight plus two 'average' souls OB plus one hour of fuel at 'normal' cruise RPM. This is avidly applied in the UK such that you can only have Jabiru Savannahs whereas, let's say, the real world is much more pragmatic and has an eye to the direction in which the wind is blowing.
    Having flown both a Jabiru powered Savannah & a 912S powered Savannah I know exactly what the UK microlighters are missing, but they don't..... there are numerous other microlights ( read: ultralights ) that I have had the privilege to fly in Europe & further afield that the UK microlighters are missing out on. It seems the BMAA have turned microlighting into a level of socialism where they are telling the masses what they can or can't have. I know exactly what is out there and there are certainly better choices outside of the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    And don't forget, the more attractive you can make capable 2-seat microlights with their low cost of ownership, the more owners and pilots you can grab into the microlight fold from the GA sector who appreciate such advantages.
    The BMAA/LAA haven't grasped that concept yet, a prime example is the Dynamic RG, you can have a fixed gear Dynamic here in the UK but a version with retractable wheels is not accepted because the BMAA/LAA think flicking a switch that moves a few components is a bit too complicated !!!! Using the Savannah 912s as another comparison, it is acceptable to have a Jabiru powered Savannah in the UK because it can weigh under the prescribed empty weight, but the 912s version might just push it a few kg over the prescribed empty weight so it isn't allowed ( no credibility is taken into account that a waif like person might be flying it or a lardy bugger like me ) The BMAA/LAA put too much emphasis on empty weights, the rest of the EU have a more pragmatic stance on this, guess what? There aren't more weight related accidents in the EU because of the EU pragmatism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    Such a strategy is apparently lost on the UK authorities who see the way forward as remaining crystallised like aspic and keeping a fleet of aircraft flying that were designed (and often manufactured) 20 or 30 years ago - and you wonder why UK microlighting is dying on its feet.
    UK microlighting is dying because the UK end users have accepted that they have to accept what they are being offered. I guess if you haven't seen what you are missing, you won't miss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    But the Savannah is only one of many of this 'new breed' most of which, of course, will be totally unknown within the UK.
    There are so many more microlights (read: ultralights ) in the EU that would enhance the UK microlight end users choices if the protectionism that certain UK microlight suppliers have was quashed. ( if the Eurofly Flash Comfort was allowed in the UK, the Skyranger & Eurofox sales would dry up overnight ) The same applies with the Savannah 912s..... if the 912s version was accepted in the UK no one would buy the Jabiru version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    From the same stable is the 582 powered Bingo, then you have the Citius, the Guepy, the Guepard, the Zenairs, copies such as the Trophy and others... the list goes on and on. These are all, obviously, much more recent designs than the venerable old AX3s, X-Airs and Thrusters that one is accustomed to seeing chugging around the UK skies and although I don't know for sure, I suspect that they were designed with the LS category in mind which, so far as I'm aware, has never been implemented in Europe.
    The Savannah is probably the most copied microlight in various guises, I have flown the Bingo,Guepy, zen 701 & Land Africa versions as well as the Savannah, all are available at reasonable prices and I have even seen 503/582 Bingo's at X'Air money on the secondhand market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    So there was every incentive for manufacturers to sneek them into the ULM class and, because of their attractiveness, for owners to buy them and that's what's caused the drift. To their credit, the more enlightened authorities overseeing microlighting in Europe have understood this and recognised that turning a blind eye cannot go on, so steps are afoot to reclassify these newer, heavier designs. This does NOT mean that existing older 450kg designs will be reclassified - they won't. Some countries have already implemented the change - from memory although I may be wrong, the first I think was Finland who went immediately for a 600kg limit. Others are still 'in the process' although I'm a bit out of touch for now as I've been out of the loop since last spring for health reasons (but on my way back now).
    A lot of the Ultralight authorities in Europe have been very pragmatic and upped the ultralight weights to allow for the fact that Pierre is eating more cheval than he used to & that Hans is eating more Bratwurst nowadays. The Brits haven't noticed that we live on Fatty Fast Food and that the once innovators of microlighting are now the 'tail end charlies'

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    The man who is the authority on this is, of course, Paul Dewhurst and it would be great if he could drop in and bring us all up to date with what's going on.
    To a certain degree I would agree with you that Paul Dewhurst is the man to tell us what is going on ( although I still think Paul might be wanting to hold onto the protectionism he has shrouded his products in ) so maybe his vested interests might be such that he can't give a fully unbiased analysis on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    By way of an aside, my old French AX3 has always, a far as I'm aware, been classified as a 450kg 'multiaxes' ULM whether fitted with a 582 engine (as it was) or a 503 (as it is now), as are X-Airs with 503 engines over here. Interestingly, before it was allowed to be imported into the UK, certain changes to specification were required (as usual). These involved fitting a heavier main axle beam (with torsion cables) and 'dampers' which aren't and, as far as I can see, a heavier pod (I say this because my French machine's pod is considerably lighter than either of the two that I had fitted at various times on my old UK AX3). So the changes added weight to the original French design.
    I actually had a EU Skyranger to deliver that had 'beefed up' brakes & a few other differing components, it tipped the scales at 278kg empty ( so about 10kg over UK accepted empty weight ) The same can be said about 3x EU C42's that I have delivered where EU specs had better quality components than the UK Spec, the UK Spec is governed by this archaic idea that anything over 272kg empty won't fly correctly !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    So then what did the UK authorities do, in their wisdom? They classified it as a 390kg machine. Is it any wonder that AX3 weights quoted in the UK are a joke (to those in the know...).
    Now here is a very strange scenario: Your 450kg AX3 in France is indeed only allowed to be 390kg in the UK..... So if G-MYRO was cleared to 390kg in Blighty & you then put 34-ARS on as the French immatriculation you can instantly fly it 60kg heavier as a MTOM....... 34-ARS can be flown in UK Airspace now at 450kg, but god forbid you revert to G-MYRO because you will lose 60kg of your payload !!!! I guess the microlight knows having a G on it makes it less capable? it follows the concept of the UK decision makers who seem to be less capable than the European allies.


  3. #13
    Captain Randombloke's Avatar
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    Loads of merde snipped out but just to pick up on:

    Quote Originally Posted by F-UK FLYER View Post
    To a certain degree I would agree with you that Paul Dewhurst is the man to tell us what is going on ( although I still think Paul might be wanting to hold onto the protectionism he has shrouded his products in ) so maybe his vested interests might be such that he can't give a fully unbiased analysis on this.
    Complete and utter codswallop. Once again we get back to pointless drivel that reduces a forum to the same old tired old "you know who as a fountain of wisdom". It's the wisdom of the bovine posterior, for sure.

    Mr Dewhurst will give a concise and well thought out opinion, and the implied slurs about him are without foundation.
    Last edited by Randombloke; 26-01-18 at 23:19 PM.
    Steve U.
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    "Weekend bimbler, day to day car driver & genuinely undeserving Southern oik who has never done anything of any worth"


  4. #14
    F-UK FLYER
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    Steve,

    Whilst my credibility in 2018 is vastly increasing in the UK Microlighting circles, it would seem ( if the messages are to be believed ) that yours is in a downward spiral.

    I always look at the bigger picture & Roger is exposing the lack of vision in the UK Microlight circles, it is indeed a sorry state of affairs when the likes of people in the UK can't see the wood for the trees.

    It is even sadder when "you know who as a fountain of wisdom". has a bigger following than the BMAA & LAA combined.

    So whilst I am becoming more popular, the BMAA is becoming less popular, even you have become Anti BMAA to some degree, so stop having cheap swipes at folk because it will only make you less popular than a fart in a lift.

    " You might have noticed you are the only one trying to pick holes in those with different opinions "

    Quote Originally Posted by Randombloke View Post
    Loads of merde snipped out but just to pick up on:

    Complete and utter codswallop. Once again we get back to pointless drivel that reduces a forum to the same old tired old "you know who as a fountain of wisdom". It's the wisdom of the bovine posterior, for sure.


  5. #15
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    Peter, yes I'd agree with Steve. This isn't about sniping or grinding axes - let's just keep it non-personal and factual because this is stuff that people should know and maybe don't because of how things work in the UK.

    But you're right about MYRO, not that MYRO could ever return to the UK because it's gone now, although parts of it including its engine live on in 28AAD, my French AX3. A UK pilot is not permitted to own my Savannah S for the reason I mentioned above. However, because it's permitted in France, I was allowed to fly it back to and to an unlimited extent in the UK on my French ULM licence (albeit for a limited period) when I flew it over in 2016 and hopefully will do so again this year.

    So it's lucky that I'm a more responsible chap than the average UK microlighter isn't it, otherwise wafting around in it in the rarefied air of the UK could be dangerous, couldn't it

    Puts tin hat on....

    But I'd also point out that this is true of all of the 'overweight' microlights/ULMs on other European and foreign registers flown on foreign licences (although I'm not sure that a pilot with a UK licence would be precluded so long as they are otherwise legally permitted to fly the aircraft).
    Last edited by Roger Mole; 26-01-18 at 23:30 PM.


  6. #16
    Job_CF
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    Thanks to the SSDR, we now have aircraft such as the Eurofly MiniFox, Merlin HV-103 and SD-1 Minisport available as ready to fly.
    There are many more aircraft from Europe and the US that are attractive to pilots in the UK.
    DULV Certified aircraft having to go through the bureaucracy and expense of full Section 'S' certification does not make sense.
    Would like to see BMAA and LAA put the interests of its members first and do something about it.
    Last edited by Job_CF; 26-01-18 at 23:57 PM.


  7. #17
    Captain Randombloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Job_CF View Post
    DULV Certified aircraft having to go through the bureaucracy and expense of full Section 'S' certification does not make sense.
    Would like to see BMAA and LAA put the interests of its members first and do something about it.
    Currently, and I'm sure Paul will disagree on the reasoning to the outcome if he posts here, both the BMAA and the LAA take more money from certification, permit and engineering work than they do from membership subs.

    For the LAA it's about 55%? of revenue from memory. Accepting DULV, or the Czech standards, or anything else would severely dent revenue. You use the example of SSDR, and as the moan was on Facebook last week by John Moore, SSDR was bad for the BMAA because it saw a reduction in members, because there was no obligation to be a member for a permit.

    And there is the great conflict of interest for both associations. What would be good for BMAA or LAA members, would not be good for the associations as a whole, especially for revenue. So the conflict of interest between the association as a members' body, and the association as a revenue earning company limited by guarantee plays out.

    I agree with you and think every point Roger makes is on the nail, but the likelihood of the reins being loosened for anything other than single seat looks like a closed chapter. But neither association will ask...
    Steve U.
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    "Weekend bimbler, day to day car driver & genuinely undeserving Southern oik who has never done anything of any worth"

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  9. #18
    F-UK FLYER
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    Peter, yes I'd agree with Steve. This isn't about sniping or grinding axes - let's just keep it non-personal and factual because this is stuff that people should know and maybe don't because of how things work in the UK.
    I wasn't sniping or grinding an axe ( if it came across that way I can only apologise, I am still learning the softer touch of getting a point over in what is faceless text ) The intent was to be concise & factual but by no means pointing a finger at anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    But you're right about MYRO, not that MYRO could ever return to the UK because it's gone now, although parts of it including its engine live on in 28AAD, my French AX3. A UK pilot is not permitted to own my Savannah S for the reason I mentioned above. However, because it's permitted in France, I was allowed to fly it back to and to an unlimited extent in the UK on my French ULM licence (albeit for a limited period) when I flew it over in 2016 and hopefully will do so again this year.
    One upshot now is that the UK CAA have now removed the need to get an exemption for any EU registered ultralight to fly in UK airspace, the new General Exemption for Foreign Registered Home-Built Aircraft and Certain Historic Aircraft now allows entry into UK airspace (for maximum 28 days) of home-built and certain historic aircraft registered in other ECAC member states without having to apply for an individual exemption under the Air Navigation Order 2016.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    So it's lucky that I'm a more responsible chap than the average UK microlighter isn't it, otherwise wafting around in it in the rarefied air of the UK could be dangerous, couldn't it
    C'mon Roger you must have noticed the air quality is better in Europe, I certainly have ( or is it the weather that makes it seem better? )

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    Puts tin hat on....

    But I'd also point out that this is true of all of the 'overweight' microlights/ULMs on other European and foreign registers flown on foreign licences (although I'm not sure that a pilot with a UK licence would be precluded so long as they are otherwise legally permitted to fly the aircraft).
    I am also not sure whether a UK NPPL is legally allowed to fly any EU registered ultralight ( outwith the UK registration ) on their NPPL?
    I do know that even with my ICAO licence I had to get a Validation for a Spanish microlight whilst I can fly a General aviation aircraft without a formal validation.
    I did have a DGAC rampcheck at Muret that involved the Gendarmerie & later DGAC officials at DGAC premises in Toulouse Blagnac where they queried that I was flying an Italian CT2K on an ICAO licence in France. I wasn't sure what way it was going to go with the Gendarmerie so I stayed quiet & acted dumb, they drove me to the DGAC offices in Blagnac so the DGAC could investigate everything, I had to have everything translated by an english/french translator as the DGAC didn't speak English & I wasn't able to converse in French.... the good bit was 'everything was deemed to be in order' and I was now at Blagnac which was where my flight back to the UK was departing from...... I reckon the Gendarmerie saved me an €80 taxi ride and even kindly dropped me to the terminal after my interrogation.

    I like the French way of dealing with aviation matters, but I am sure they had to chop down a few trees to replace the paper used in the investigation ( why is everything in Triplicate to be given to me and also in triplicate for everyone in the room, it was a bit like ' An audience with DGAC '


  10. #19
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    Re UK licence and foreign reg ULM - I'm pretty sure that the answer is negative because even though my UK PPLA (M) was valid at the time (it's lapsed now) I had to get a French licence before I was allowed to fly French reg ULMs in France. That says nothing about what goes or does not go in the UK though. Who knows, so long as I flew my Savannah into the UK, I could possibly add a UK pilot to the insurance while I was there and they could then fly it during the 28 day period.

    That creates an interesting question I think as they'd be flying an aircraft that they would otherwise be legally precluded from flying in UK airspace (shock horror!)

    BTW sorry about the thread drift, but I'm not sure that there was much more to add to the original X-Air question and hopefully this stuff is interesting for most people. I think it is.


  11. #20
    F-UK FLYER
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    Re UK licence and foreign reg ULM - I'm pretty sure that the answer is negative because even though my UK PPLA (M) was valid at the time (it's lapsed now) I had to get a French licence before I was allowed to fly French reg ULMs in France. That says nothing about what goes or does not go in the UK though. Who knows, so long as I flew my Savannah into the UK, I could possibly add a UK pilot to the insurance while I was there and they could then fly it during the 28 day period.
    I think you are correct about your UK PPLA(M) wouldn't have been valid on any French registered ultralight but it would have remained valid on G-MYRO whilst you had validity.
    Your ULM Brevet is valid in the UK for the 28 day period that you visit (#leavethe912attheFIRboundary#) because the Savannah is not compatible with UK air when fitted with a 912

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    That creates an interesting question I think as they'd be flying an aircraft that they would otherwise be legally precluded from flying in UK airspace (shock horror!)
    The Savannah 912s will be allowed in UK Airspace ( or at least I hope so seeing as I will be staging through UK airspace in a 912s Savannah soon ).
    Attachment 14496

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    BTW sorry about the thread drift, but I'm not sure that there was much more to add to the original X-Air question and hopefully this stuff is interesting for most people. I think it is.
    I will give you the lowdown when I get through the UK in the SVNH

    ( You will also notice the 'unaccepted' Spotty Flash Comfort next to the SVNH )


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