SSDR Rally 2018 - Electric Power Discussion

**Adrian Jones** · 11-07-18, 22:09 PM

I think you are totally wrong sssdu01. Despite the existence of practical hydrogen cells for decades, car manufacturers are pulling out of developing hydrogen powered cars and putting all of their effort into batteries, including Toyota and Honda who have both finally relented. Producing hydrogen from electrolysis and then turning it back into electricity is grossly inefficient. Putting it into batteries is a much better option.

Far from a hydrogen filling station proliferating, expansion has been painfully slow. The following was reported in March this year,

"A new hydrogen pump has been installed at Beaconsfield services on the M40, the second on Britain’s motorway network and the first to be built ‘under the canopy’ at an existing petrol station."

Compare that with the absolute explosion in electric charging points all over the country, and indeed the world. Not to mention being able to plug in at home, the main way most people will charge up.

When everyone has a battery car plugged into an intelligent national grid when not in use, they can be used as a giant store to absorb all of that cheap off peak electricity that is produced by nuclear and wind overnight, and then release some of it back to the grid to iron out the peaks and troughs in demand.

I for one want to generate my own electricity at home to power a car. No more visiting filling stations, being a hostage of OPEC, and suffering extortionate rates of fuel tax. No government can tax energy that you produce yourself. They will have to charge for use of the roads, based on mileage and the amount of congestion you cause. That's a much better way of controlling car use, thus reducing traffic on congested routes, but not penalising people in rural areas who need to rely on their cars.

**Adrian Jones** · 11-07-18, 22:28 PM

Originally Posted by I GO FAST.

Clive is the son of Max Coote. Clive & his brother Tim sold Ripmax in 2003.
Clive invested heavily into Yuneec International in 2007 & in 2014 took control of Yuneec Limited in 2014 in the UK.

Clive is quite an entrepeneurial type of guy. http://www.wired.co.uk/article/yuneec-electric-aircraft-consumer

http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video...---clive-coote

Thank you for that. Clive sounds like just the person I need to talk to.

**Randombloke** · 11-07-18, 22:29 PM

Originally Posted by Adrian Jones

I for one want to generate my own electricity at home to power a car. No more visiting filling stations, being a hostage of OPEC, and suffering extortionate rates of fuel tax. No government can tax energy that you produce yourself. They will have to charge for use of the roads, based on mileage and the amount of congestion you cause. That's a much better way of controlling car use, thus reducing traffic on congested routes, but not penalising people in rural areas who need to rely on their cars.

Fuel tax? The government will simply resort to taxing the sale of batteries, based on the huge costs of disposal and recycling. How do you think you're going to produce the huge amounts of charge an electric car will will need at home, and what changes will need to be made to the National infrastructure when everyone is charging a car at home overnight? UK infrastructure typifies under investment.

Yuneec - they've been a frequent exhibitor at St Hilaire over the last eight years and Skywings has covered their electric power offerings, mostly for paramotors.

Electricity has made strides in gliding as a self launch method as 20 minute climb + 10 minutes emergency is all that's needed. A replacement for a Group A EuroFox with 120 litres of fuel is another matter.

I'm sure it's all going to happen, perhaps not the way we think, but don't throw away your jerry cans yet.

**Adrian Jones** · 11-07-18, 23:04 PM

Originally Posted by Randombloke

Fuel tax? The government will simply resort to taxing the sale of batteries, based on the huge costs of disposal and recycling. How do you think you're going to produce the huge amounts of charge an electric car will will need at home, and what changes will need to be made to the National infrastructure when everyone is charging a car at home overnight? UK infrastructure typifies under investment.

They won't tax batteries because this would kill the migration to electric vehicles and it makes no economic sense when you consider the UK government's aim for us to be a world leader in the field of electrification. In less than three years time EVs will be cheaper than ICE cars because they are intrinsically simpler devices and all the car manufacturers are putting billions into battery research and manufacturing, with several about to open gigafactories to rival Tesla's one in Nevada, which will be the biggest single factory in the world when completed, any day now. The cost of batteries is about to plummet.

As for overloading the grid, electric vehicles are not a problem they are a solution. They can be used to iron out the peaks and troughs in demand. With an intelligent grid we won't need any new power stations for some time, if ever. We have enough capacity at present for nearly twice our daily consumption. If there was a way of storing this excess then we would have oodles of electricity. Just a minute, I know where we could store it - IN ELECTRIC VEHICLES.

It is also perfectly possible to generate enough electricity from a roof full of solar panels to run a house, charge a car, and export excess to the grid. The average car spends 90odd % of its time parked up. Charging it at home is not a problem.

**sssdu01** · 11-07-18, 23:18 PM

You cant say car manufacturers are putting all their efforts into battery powered cars, at the moment you can buy Hyundais ix35, the Toyota Mirai and soon Honda Clarity. Mercedes Benz are also leasing customers the GLC F - Cell. BMW have a few experimental 5 series running on hydrogen, and plans to launch some production models in 2021 and a fuller range in 2025.

Yes these companies are also making battery electric vehicles, but every car company is actively working on Hydrogen cars. Build is underway on a Hydrogen powered cruise liner and some Germans have flow a 4 seater plane powered by Hydrogen. Hydrogen has no real disadvantages in use and it is the way forward.

The big thing thats holding it up for raod use is the lack of infrastructure i.e Hydrogen pumps on forecourts. I did say it will be the HGV industry that will force the installation of pumps and the passenger car volumes will follow. This will be a relief to all those who dont have off road parking that would allow home charging, and whilst more charging points are being installed the long charging times and short range of electric vehicles means this is still dead end technology. I know it would be possible to have faster charge times but that would require a colossal infrastructure investment with additional network, much more expensive and time consuming than putting hydrogen pumps on forecourts.

You can also use all the surplus Electricity to make Hydrogen gas !!

**Adrian Jones** · 12-07-18, 00:27 AM

You sound like someone who works in the hydrogen supply industry!

I don't believe that every manufacturer is working on hydrogen cars. Not by a long way. That statement is obviously inaccurate because Tesla for instance would never contemplate that. They are so confident in battery technology and its inexorable improvement that they recently launched their new articulated lorry. Its performance outstrips any diesel or hydrogen powered lorry by a wide margin. Fleet owners are driven by operating costs. Battery powered commercial vehicles will have the lowest costs.

There are also several battery powered car ferrys with more planned. And even at least one 150 ton quarry dumper truck. This operates in an unusual situation, bringing stone down hill from a mountain top quarry, 100 tons at a time. It generates more electricity on the descent, from its regenerative braking, than it uses to return to the top empty. It exports the excess to the grid, so its fuel costs are negative.

And BMW are not about to launch a range hydrogen cars.

You are a bit behind the times if you don't know that the range of EVs can now be over 300 miles with current technology, and that rapid chargers are already widespread and can top up an EV battery to 85% in 40 minutes. This will only further improve. Also for those without a driveway there are plans to turn street lamposts into charging points This is already underway.

In the next two years there are over 100 new electric car models being launched by all the leading manufacturers. How many new hydrogen cars will there be in that time? My guess is probably close to zero.

Car charging infrastructure is already well established and increasing at an ever accelerating rate. There is healthy competition in this field with many charging network companies vying with each other for market dominance. BP have also just anounced that they will be installing charging points in every one of their filling stations, because they can see the writing is on the wall for their current business model. They will have to move away from selling petrol and diesel and into charging points, or they will go under.

In contrast most of the installed hydrogen filling pumps are at research institutes and Toyota and Honda headquarters, plus a few dealers. They are trying to push water uphill against a tsunami coming the other way, and as I have already said they have finally realised that, and are now planning battery EVs.

**sssdu01** · 12-07-18, 07:48 AM

I dont work for anyone as happily retired and come from a telecommunications background. I think we will just differ in our views on what the future looks like, and when you are in the queue at BP waiting for the 10 people in front of you to complete their 40 min re charge I will beep the horn as I drive past in my Hydrogen car

(which will be my petrol Ferrari converted to burn Hydrogen gas in its ICE !!)

**Adrian Jones** · 12-07-18, 08:23 AM

No need to be in a queue. This just reported by BBC -

"There are 16,000 charging points at 5,800 locations and 340 points added monthly. Most drivers will charge their car at home. "

Personally I will be in the air in my battery powered Shadow while my car tops up for free from solar panels on my hangar roof. Then after landing, plug the aeroplane in and head home, driving past all the filling stations which are quickly being converted to rapid charging stations.

I might also have to negotiate all of the abandoned ICE and hydrogen cars which suddenly have no resale value and are therefore dumped on the side of the road to avoid the horrendous recycling costs.

As for the remaining ICE cars, it will be socially unacceptable to operate them. A bit like smoking is frowned upon now. And they will certainly be banned from towns in the future.