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  1. #171
    Test Pilot Paul Dewhurst's Avatar
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    There seems to be some criticism of BMAA on this thread.

    As someone who has volunteered and worked on a lot of projects with BMAA and CAA I perhaps have an insight in what is involved and the legal framework.

    Firstly I guess what would we hope to see, and then the legal issues.

    If we want a complete freedom to just make and fit parts at our own discretion;

    This isnít possible without completely dismantling the current legal framework that requires oversight and approval for manufacture. Could that happen? - unlikely to get government buy in for that. And there isnít much precedent for it in other countries.

    Simpler CAA approval process for small companies to make parts.

    Maybe there is some mileage for that, but will it make a huge difference? - there is already a simplified manufacturing approval for parts only suppliers. CAA fees are not massive and requirements not unreasonable. But itís enough to put off anyone using it for microlights so far.

    Association approval cert basis for orphan aircraft - simplification?

    First thing here to realise is that itís CAA who make the rules - the associations have approval to administer the processes and are audited by CAA to make sure they are doing that in strict accordance.

    The processes are not unreasonable and really just require documentation of what any sensible engineer should be doing:

    Determining materials, dimensions, construction and processes for the parts. This can be challenging without drawings, can and is done. Then verification of the materials (invoice copies) and inspection of the part and verification of any special processes ( welding, crimping etc)

    This is done on an individual or small batch basis.

    So what could / should be done to simplify this - within the bounds of being reasonably assured the part is fit for purpose?

    In the Thruster case I am lead to believe ( an owner copied me in) that cable manufacture was outsourced to a third party, price agreed and paid. When that third party was asked for wire / crimp invoices they demanded a lot more money to give it. So it seems there was some breakdown in communication somewhere and some unreasonableness / unexpected costs. For supplying parts on a very low volume / bespoke basis fir what are now old aircraft being operated by owners on a small budget, I can exactly how that lead to being deemed s business not worth the bother.

    So how do we / should we change that?


  2. #172
    Captain Randombloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dewhurst View Post
    There seems to be some criticism of BMAA on this thread.
    I'd like to think that the criticism is constructive, as members of an association, if we do not continuously tell our association what we expect for our subs money by way of member support then we are unlikely to get it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dewhurst View Post
    First thing here to realise is that it’s CAA who make the rules - the associations have approval to administer the processes and are audited by CAA to make sure they are doing that in strict accordance.
    I'd like to open new thread to discuss this, and it's here:

    http://www.microlightforum.com/showt...es-and-process
    Steve U.
    PG, HG & microlights
    "Weekend bimbler, day to day car driver & genuinely undeserving Southern oik who has never done anything of any worth"


  3. #173
    Trainee Pilot Keith Nelson's Avatar
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    P & M Aviation Limited in Administration

    From what I have been told by someone in contact with the administrators they are still progressing the sale of the company assets and are dealing with contractual issues with their 2 preferred bidders.


    They have further said that if a sale cannot be progressed with one of these potential purchasers they have a number of lower bids from parties who have confirmed that if a sale cannot be concluded they would still be interested in purchasing.

    What hasn't been made clear is what exactly is being sold on, in the paraphenalia sent out to interested parties there isn't any mention of design plans or manufacturing plans so from that I am led to think that the manufacturing documents aren't part of the sale.

    The question is, has someone already purchased the design rights of the P&M designs or are they being retained by the previous owners under intellectual property rights?

    It all seems very strange that the words "preferred bidders" are used instead of the words "highest bidders" Wouldn't it be in the best interests of the previous owners to ask for the highest bid to be accepted?



    Keith Nelson
    ( Actively looking for a microlight to buy ).

    I stayed up all night to see where the sun went, and then it dawned on me.


  4. #174
    Co-Pilot Martin Watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Nelson View Post

    It all seems very strange that the words "preferred bidders" are used instead of the words "highest bidders" Wouldn't it be in the best interests of the previous owners to ask for the highest bid to be accepted?

    Generally speaking "preferred bidder" is used because it may be that they don't want to accept the highest bid (this it quite usual, nothing to do with P&M). The bidder may take time to raise the funds, or be thought to be unreliable in some way - the administrator has to do the best for the creditors which might mean accepting a bid from someone who they know can and will pay promptly (the creditors won't get anything until the sale happens) even if it's a bit lower than another.
    Other factors could be whether or not the prospective buyers intend to carry on trading, or sell off some of the business, and so on.
    Incidentally the interests of the previous owners don't come into it - they aren't getting the money unless by some miracle it can be sold for more than it owes to creditors...
    Martin
    BMAA 5370


  5. #175
    Captain Randombloke's Avatar
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    When the final insolvency paperwork is done, someone should get and post it here or post a link to it.

    There will be very little for the creditors, there very rarely is in solvency proceedings. Part of the reason why is the rates charged by the people doing the work.

    As a creditor of Setanta I received paperwork showing people being a paid a range of hourly rates between £960/hour and £140/hour. I got 1.4p in the £ in settlement for what I was owed.

    As a creditor of Speedferries, I was told I'd get nothing, but I'd bought the advance tickets with my credit card, so they refunded me and they copped for the lot.

    If anyone has the paperwork or a link to the proceedings please post it.

    If there is no IP with the sale then it's not worth much, even with the IP you have approvals to get, if you haven't got them.
    Steve U.
    PG, HG & microlights
    "Weekend bimbler, day to day car driver & genuinely undeserving Southern oik who has never done anything of any worth"


  6. #176
    Wannabe Pilot Trident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randombloke View Post
    If there is no IP with the sale then it's not worth much, even with the IP you have approvals to get, if you haven't got them.
    From what I was told, the A1 approval was going to remain valid for a short while so it could hopefully be transferred to a new owner. Whether that will actually happen or how long it would be kept valid for I don't know, but it could give a new owner a fighting chance of keeping the brand/supply of parts alive.


  7. #177
    Captain renmure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Nelson View Post

    What hasn't been made clear is what exactly is being sold on, in the paraphenalia sent out to interested parties there isn't any mention of design plans or manufacturing plans so from that I am led to think that the manufacturing documents aren't part of the sale.

    The question is, has someone already purchased the design rights of the P&M designs or are they being retained by the previous owners under intellectual property rights?

    It all seems very strange that the words "preferred bidders" are used instead of the words "highest bidders" Wouldn't it be in the best interests of the previous owners to ask for the highest bid to be accepted?

    Preferred bidder status is best thought about in simple terms. If you are selling your house you may have a few interested parties. You may have cash buyer with no chain making the lowest offer. You may have the highest offer from someone needing a mortgage and having their own house to sell. Your preferred bidder may end up as a compromise of amount offered, timescales involved and conditions applied.

    The IP thing is likely to be fairly standard and in this instance will be one of the main company assets (that's making a host of fairly safe assumptions about who came up with the designs and their contract status and business relationship with their employer at the time on inception)

    As a flexy flier I'm disappointed about how it's all gone for P&M. I think they struggled to provide any realistic, financially viable upgrade path for owners so that the "next thing" was significantly better or more desireable than whatever existing owners had and so allowing a flow of new sales. I've had my Quik 912S for 9 years now. I could be described as having more money than sense (due to little sense rather than lots of money) and happily upgrade cars, tv's, computer stuff, hi-tec stuff etc on an ongoing basis to get the next "best thing." I've never had any temptation to look at a PulseR or HyperR and even try to justify the upgrade cost of £30/40/50k for something that is such a small incremental improvement in the case of the HypeR or, well.. I've no idea what the low bar threshold for sense is for splashing out on the PulseR.


  8. #178
    Test Pilot Paul Dewhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    From what I was told, the A1 approval was going to remain valid for a short while so it could hopefully be transferred to a new owner. Whether that will actually happen or how long it would be kept valid for I don't know, but it could give a new owner a fighting chance of keeping the brand/supply of parts alive.
    as someone just in the process of getting this approval for Skyranger production , the A8-1 production approval is about the premises ( stores, working areas, offices demarcation etc), staff and their roles / individual competencies, and subcontractor control and quality processes.

    as the staff have all gone, and any buyer is highly unlikely to keep everything at Manton, the approval is pretty much worthless. Just an interesting template.

    paul

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  10. #179
    Co-Pilot thearb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    Generally speaking "preferred bidder" is used because it may be that they don't want to accept the highest bid (this it quite usual, nothing to do with P&M). The bidder may take time to raise the funds, or be thought to be unreliable in some way - the administrator has to do the best for the creditors which might mean accepting a bid from someone who they know can and will pay promptly (the creditors won't get anything until the sale happens) even if it's a bit lower than another.
    Other factors could be whether or not the prospective buyers intend to carry on trading, or sell off some of the business, and so on.
    Incidentally the interests of the previous owners don't come into it - they aren't getting the money unless by some miracle it can be sold for more than it owes to creditors...
    spot on. As in any major transaction, like a house, it's not always about the highest bidder, anybody can wave non-binding high offers around and then retreat (and often do).

    It's about deliverability.
    Skyranger G-PAWZ


  11. #180
    Wannabe Pilot Trident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Dewhurst View Post
    as someone just in the process of getting this approval for Skyranger production , the A8-1 production approval is about the premises ( stores, working areas, offices demarcation etc), staff and their roles / individual competencies, and subcontractor control and quality processes.

    as the staff have all gone, and any buyer is highly unlikely to keep everything at Manton, the approval is pretty much worthless. Just an interesting template.

    paul
    Good luck with your approval application. You sound like an ideal candidate to take over some of the P&M activities then?


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