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  1. #71
    Banned Wexfordair's Avatar
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    Suppose someone with a shiny new QuikR and has hull insurance gives it a prang. He only needs some repairs and few parts but is it now a write off?
    Last edited by Wexfordair; 17-05-19 at 23:19 PM.


  2. #72
    Captain MadamBreakneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wexfordair View Post
    ... is it now a write off?
    Ultimately that would be an insurance decision. At the moment it'd be in limbo, but if someone buys the design rights and is able to set up a CAA-approved factory (or already has one) to manufacture parts then it'd revert to the old status quo. If nobody buys the rights then P&M stuff would be orphaned and would revert to BMAA design authority (see here) not as easy as buying and fitting standard bits from an approved manufacturer, but possible. Further guidance here: Til 058 Issue 2 Replacement parts.

    That said, life would be easier correction: less challenging if the aircraft were home-built rather than a type-approved (factory-built) machine.



    Back to just bimbling in the TST.

    No longer instructing - just pontificating..
    and now a Tai Chi instructor


  3. #73
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    Presumably there will be a small stock of parts remaining that the administrator will continue selling, but that will only offer a temporary solution. My guess is finding a white knight to step in and buy the business while the status quo remains is clutching at straws. Things have got to change and barriers have got to be removed. That will take time and by then it's likely to be too late. Regulators and administrators don't usually possess much entrepreneurial flair (it's why they do what they do) and find it hard to understand that businesses have to make a profit in order to survive. It's the good old British gold-plating mentality.


  4. #74
    Co-Pilot Antoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    .... and administrators don't usually possess much entrepreneurial flair (it's why they do what they do)........
    I have seen that administrators do what they do because they are good at it. That's why they are administrators.
    "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - G.B.S.


  5. #75
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    That may be so, but there are times when a little less 'oversight' and 'administration' wouldn't go amiss.

    Off topic a bit, but here's an amusing little French story that shows what I mean. As everyone knows, the French are arch administrators and keen fans of bureaucracy and paperwork. Here's what happened when I applied for my French driving licence.

    I downloaded the form, completed it and sent it in with the required photographs. The whole package was returned to me on the grounds that I'd used the wrong form (despite the fact that I'd downloaded it from the official government web site) with the comment that it had been updated a week or so before.

    So I downloaded it again, filled it out with the same information and sent it in again with the required photographs. The whole package was returned to me on the grounds that the photographs, although conforming to the necessary size etc were not 'official' ie had not been taken in a Photo-Me booth.

    So I had some shots taken in the local supermarket foyer and sent them in again with the form. The whole package was returned to me yet again on the grounds that I had completed the form in blue-black and not black ink.

    By this time my UK licence had expired and I was driving with no licence at all but I thought too bad, their fault. That's what over-administration does and that's the direction we're heading in in the UK if we're not too careful.


  6. #76
    Co-Pilot Antoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    That may be so, but there are times when a little less 'oversight' and 'administration' wouldn't go amiss.
    Administration and administration are two completely different things. I was trying trying to stay on topic (for once).
    "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - G.B.S.


  7. #77
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    All I'm saying is that 'administration' is not a wealth creating or value adding activity and the danger is when it actively gets in the way of wealth creation. I'll stick my neck out and say the chance of a 'new entrant' not already involved in aviation acquiring P&M and/or its interests is nil mainly because of the hoops that it would have to jump through to do so all of which would involve considerable financial outlay. IMO the only hope is that someone already involved, preferably as a manufacturer, would be able to tack the business onto its existing activities at relatively low cost. But we'll have to wait and see.

    Any idea why some of the UK's leading lights in microlights in recent times decided to take their activities overseas?


  8. #78
    Captain Randombloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mole View Post
    All I'm saying is that 'administration' is not a wealth creating or value adding activity and the danger is when it actively gets in the way of wealth creation. I'll stick my neck out and say the chance of a 'new entrant' not already involved in aviation acquiring P&M and/or its interests is nil mainly because of the hoops that it would have to jump through to do so all of which would involve considerable financial outlay.
    You're going to need to stop being right or people are going to either take you to heart as the Messiah or start to hate you in a fundamentalist way.

    Your statement has been proved correct as the current UK maker of spares for the Thruster series of aircraft has closed up shop because the costs and the hoops he has to jump through make the exercise pointless.

    There is simply not enough money in spares once the approval costs are taken into account.

    The only thing that will change the current situation is when a large enough posse have grounded aircraft or significant problems with spares. This posse then become motivated when their flying is cut off in something they feel is unfair, to get out there and do something.

    One example of gold plating is when the the UK version of an aircraft costs more than the European one.

    That's the extra cost of certifying something already certified.

    Why does a factory with EASA approval have to apply for CAA approval? Oh, because it's an Annex I aircraft.

    I could go on but think I'll get the popcorn and watch from the sidelines.

    I'm guessing the Thruster will beat the P&M aircraft to officially orphaned status.

    I can see myself sliding into SSDR or doing more HG/PG, the freedom from needless paperwork for no benefit is really becoming a major plus for me.
    Steve U.
    PG, HG & microlights
    "Weekend bimbler, day to day car driver & genuinely undeserving Southern oik who has never done anything of any worth"


  9. #79
    Captain Roger Mole's Avatar
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    I don't claim any special credit because this is a train that's been hurtling towards us for quite a long time and for me the most amazing thing as that although it's been as clear as day, nobody has been prepared to do anything about it until the crisis has hit. In fact, totally the opposite. The people who are now directly affected by it have been asking for the status quo to be retained. If you don't believe me, just look back over a few old posts on this forum.

    I don't know what to say. My sympathies however are with them and I hope for their sakes that someone like Paul who has UK microlighting close to his heart will be able to help in some way, maybe by incorporating at least the spares business into his current activities. But it's not for me to say. However, if he should be considering such an heroic act he must certainly ensure that he doesn't take on anything that might threaten his current business that's for sure.

    Sad times for UK ultralight aviation.


  10. #80
    Banned Wexfordair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadamBreakneck View Post
    Ultimately that would be an insurance decision. At the moment it'd be in limbo, but if someone buys the design rights and is able to set up a CAA-approved factory (or already has one) to manufacture parts then it'd revert to the old status quo. If nobody buys the rights then P&M stuff would be orphaned and would revert to BMAA design authority (see here) not as easy as buying and fitting standard bits from an approved manufacturer, but possible. Further guidance here: Til 058 Issue 2 Replacement parts.

    That said, life would be easier correction: less challenging if the aircraft were home-built rather than a type-approved (factory-built) machine.
    My thinking is that it would be nearly impossible for the insurance company to get a reliable repair quotation and either make these machines un-insurable or raise the cost of cover to cover their asses. Im no expert, what is the situation with other orphaned micros? can they get hull cover?
    Who is going to pay 30 or 40K for an un-insurable toy??

    Again, I think it would be a good/reasonable investment for someone to add to their portfolio if it doesnt cost much and they are already at it with so many second hand pegasus and manair machines about and worldwide. Still going to need a specialist to do sail making/repairs though!
    Would topflight sails be able to make a quik-R sail?


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