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  1. #11
    Co-Pilot Wexfordair's Avatar
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    Maybe let the BMAA handle permits etc and the LAA handle members interests


  2. #12
    Airfield Ops Asgard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Twissell View Post
    Steve is absolutely correct re. conflicts of interests, both with MOTs and the BMAA.
    So, what is the solution?
    If we begin by assuming that the CAA is unlikely to reduce the regulatory burden and annual inspections will remain, then the question becomes how to balance the interests of the BMAA's revenue against the interests of its members. One option might be to separate the functions of permits, mods etc. from the membership representation function. Ideally, the division dealing with permits, mods etc. would raise sufficient revenue to fund its own operation and overheads while the members side of things would raise revenue through subscriptions to fund its running, overheads, magazine (open to debate) and the business of representing members interests.
    I am writing this as a subject for discussion, not offering a fully formed solution to all the worlds problems.



    Wont happen, Permit fees subsidise everything else


  3. #13
    Co-Pilot Martin Watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asgard View Post
    Wont happen, Permit fees subsidise everything else
    This is true, unfortunately.
    But Peters suggestion is a good one and has been made before. But simply, the size of the pool of available members just isn't big enough to support a stand alone operation. The BMAA relies on the income from the tech office. You can see this by looking at the accounts- it's true that a good accountant can make the numbers say whatever you want, and it depends on how the BMAA apportions it's overheads, but fundamentally from a money point of view the membership isn't big enough.
    Martin
    BMAA 5370
    Fixed wing instruction, examinations and revalidations in Norfolk.


  4. #14
    Co-Pilot jetlag's Avatar
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    How do the numbers of pilots and associates and their subscriptions compare between France and the GB.

    The FFPLUM seems to receive sufficient funds to fulfil their many and varied rolls, including, financial aid for young pilots, club machines (parachutes), training, tour ULM (France), safety training courses for pilots, representing pilots rights with the DGAC, monthly magazine, promoting the sport/hobby generally .. and probably much much more.
    F-JRIB LF1751 Corme Ecluse

    Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

    Phil.


  5. #15
    Co-Pilot Martin Watson's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how many members exactly are in the BMAA. 5000 or so? (Hopefully someone can provide a better figure).
    Annual subscription 80. So income from subs approx 400,000.
    How does that compare to FFPULM?
    Two thoughts -
    - the BMAA has been very poor at developing services and products that it can sell to it's it's members over and above annual subscription-
    - and BMAA has to compete with the paramotor boys who have their separate association

    As I think I may have said before, if starting with a blank sheet of paper , flexis would go with paramotors and hang gliders, three axis with the LAA. No need for BMAA.

    But we are where we are, and I'm not arguing for amalgamation of BMAA and LAA.
    Martin
    BMAA 5370
    Fixed wing instruction, examinations and revalidations in Norfolk.


  6. #16
    Captain Gentreau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    I'm not sure how many members exactly are in the BMAA. 5000 or so? (Hopefully someone can provide a better figure).
    Annual subscription 80. So income from subs approx 400,000.
    How does that compare to FFPULM?
    As I recall the FFPLUM has about 18000 members even though membership is not obligatory.
    Admittedly, many clubs and syndicates require members to join the federation, but that comes with benefits.
    For example, free legal representation and insurance deals for third-party, pilot and passenger.

    As for cost:
    Membership, including free legal protection and the monthly magazine 76EUR = 1.368M EUR revenue !


    The nagging question must be, why are there so many more pilots in France than the UK despite similar population size ?
    Last edited by Gentreau; 11-07-19 at 09:19 AM.
    The three most useless things in aviation:
    • The air above you.
    • The runway behind you.
    • The fuel in the bowser.


    Rule #1: Always tie your aircraft to the largest heaviest object available. The planet Earth meets these requirements and is readily available in all locations.
    Rule #2: The great thing about twin engined aircraft is, if one engine fails, the other engine always has just enough power to get you to the scene of the crash.

    Semper specto in clara parte vitae.

    .


  7. #17
    Co-Pilot Martin Watson's Avatar
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    Right from the start of aviation France has been much more enthusiastic about flying. It's just part of the culture.
    You could go further and speculate that this is down to a more romantic, "Latin" temperament.
    Or, that in the UK the class system means that flying is seen as being something as a plaything for upper class rich toffs (think 1930s flying clubs with DH Moths), whereas in the more egalitarian French Republic it's for everybody (think 1930s Henri Mignet and his Flying Flea).

    Is there a separate paramotor association in France, or are some of the FFPULM members flying paramotors?
    Also I assume there is no french equivalent of the LAA? Because in the UK if you fly a LAA microlight there is no need to be a member of the BMAA.
    Martin
    BMAA 5370
    Fixed wing instruction, examinations and revalidations in Norfolk.


  8. #18
    Captain Gentreau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    .....
    Is there a separate paramotor association in France, or are some of the FFPULM members flying paramotors?
    Also I assume there is no french equivalent of the LAA? Because in the UK if you fly a LAA microlight there is no need to be a member of the BMAA.
    The FFPLUM represents all 6 classes of "ULM" in France.
    1. Paramotor.
    2. Weight-shift
    3. 3-axis
    4. Autogyro
    5. Aerostat
    6. Helicopter
    The three most useless things in aviation:
    • The air above you.
    • The runway behind you.
    • The fuel in the bowser.


    Rule #1: Always tie your aircraft to the largest heaviest object available. The planet Earth meets these requirements and is readily available in all locations.
    Rule #2: The great thing about twin engined aircraft is, if one engine fails, the other engine always has just enough power to get you to the scene of the crash.

    Semper specto in clara parte vitae.

    .


  9. #19
    Co-Pilot jetlag's Avatar
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    An look into our culture and the work of the FFPLUM can be found here:- https://ffplum.fr/
    and the magazines that we receive here is the digital version only the old copies are on line, change the 106 for any number lower and you can read copies up to 2018. In French, certainly, but with the aid of google you will get to grips. Better still have a crack at translating it yourself, it will help you on your future visits here.

    https://ffplum.fr/images/ulminfo/ulm-info-106.pdf


    Happy reading.

    Phil
    F-JRIB LF1751 Corme Ecluse

    Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.

    Phil.


  10. #20
    Captain Randombloke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    I'm not sure how many members exactly are in the BMAA. 5000 or so? (Hopefully someone can provide a better figure).
    More like 3,500. Subs income about 236k. Regulation income about 278k.


    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    How does that compare to FFPULM?
    18,000+ members.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    BMAA has to compete with the paramotor boys who have their separate association
    The vast majority of paramotor "boys" aren't interested in either association, current BMAA paramotor numbers are about 70 and BHPA about 600-700.

    We are guessing about 2,000 to 3,500 active paramotor pilots in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Watson View Post
    As I think I may have said before, if starting with a blank sheet of paper , flexis would go with paramotors and hang gliders, three axis with the LAA. No need for BMAA.

    But we are where we are, and I'm not arguing for amalgamation of BMAA and LAA.
    LAA ne PFA turned their back on microlights at the beginning and I'm guessing only got involved for membership numbers and revenue later on.
    Steve U.
    PG, HG & microlights
    "Weekend bimbler, day to day car driver & genuinely undeserving Southern oik who has never done anything of any worth"


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